The Second Noble Truth

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[wiscidea]

According to Gil Fronsdal (www.insightmeditationcenter.org/imc-iah.html):

"The Second Noble Truth states that ... what causes our suffering, is craving. In Pali, the word is tanha, which literally means thirst. It is sometimes translated as desire but this tends to suggest that all desires are a problem. What causes suffering is desire (or aversion) that is driven, compulsive. Craving means both being driven toward experiences and objects, as well as feeling compelled to push them away. Whether craving is subtle or gross, if we aren't mindful, we won't be aware of how it contributes to our suffering."

Does craving cause suffering?

If a person is perpetually hungry, ever wanting more and more... craving security, material possessions, love, vengeance, power, time... I'm pretty certain they'll suffer. There is no way we can have everything we desire. But it is not the desire that causes problem. It is the craving.

Do you agree or disagree?

If you are not a Buddhist, does your own tradition contain a similar concept?

[wiscidea]

An addendum...

I recall hearing and reading some additional details regarding the Second Noble Truth and the translation of the Pali text. It is not simply craving that causes suffering. It is craving independent existence and permanence. It was this understanding of the Second Noble Truth that triggered my relatively serious interest in Buddhism.

I can see how craving, or clinging to, a sense of independent existence, trying to pretend you are an independent being rather than a product of millions of years of evolution, supported by a complex network of other biological organisms, living within a complex social network of other human beings could lead to immense suffering! And imagine six billion human beings trying to pretend they are independent organisms! I can also see how craving, or clinging to, permanence, hoping that all you value will never change or disappear and that all you dislike will go away and never return could lead to immense suffering!

[kwd111]

According to Gil Fronsdal (www.insightmeditationcenter.org/imc-iah.html):

"The Second Noble Truth states that ... what causes our suffering, is craving. In Pali, the word is tanha, which literally means thirst. It is sometimes translated as desire but this tends to suggest that all desires are a problem. What causes suffering is desire (or aversion) that is driven, compulsive. Craving means both being driven toward experiences and objects, as well as feeling compelled to push them away. Whether craving is subtle or gross, if we aren't mindful, we won't be aware of how it contributes to our suffering."

Does craving cause suffering?

If a person is perpetually hungry, ever wanting more and more... craving security, material possessions, love, vengeance, power, time... I'm pretty certain they'll suffer. There is no way we can have everything we desire. But it is not the desire that causes problem. It is the craving.

Do you agree or disagree?

If you are not a Buddhist, does your own tradition contain a similar concept?

Yes, there is something similar although the definition of craving as a cause of suffering, in Christianity, is more of a fruit from the root of being separated from the Creator.

Man, being intrinsically a spirit being, was united with God.  In his/her separation it formed a void that must be filled.  If not filled with God, he will look for either a spiritual substitute of God or fill it will materialism.  These would be called "cravings" for it is an inordinate desire to fill in that which was lost.

"Perpetual hunger, craving security, material possessions, love, vengeance, power, time" would fall into these two categories.

Thus the words of Jesus "You will hunger no more; you will thirst no more, vengence is mine; my peace I give you" eliminate the cravings for one has been reunited with one's Creator through what we call the "born again" experience.

So yes, something similar although perhaps, IMO, approached from the root rather that looking at the tree and its fruit.

[Metis]

Does craving cause suffering?...  Do you agree or disagree?

I agree.

But we have to be careful here because if I'm "craving" (overly desirous) to avoid craving, that too may cause suffering.  As you know, Buddhism is not nihilistic, therefore desire in and of itself is not intrinsically negative, but too much desire ("craving") indeed can cause much suffering.   

[Flitzerbiest]

Without a doubt craving leads to suffering, but I have a hard time with the proposition that craving is the cause of suffering.  I tend to think that the Buddha identified craving as an avoidable cause, not the one and only cause.  An obvious counterexample is suffering brought about by natural disasters.

[Metis]

Without a doubt craving leads to suffering, but I have a hard time with the proposition that craving is the cause of suffering.  I tend to think that the Buddha identified craving as an avoidable cause, not the one and only cause.  An obvious counterexample is suffering brought about by natural disasters.

Again, you've pretty much hit it on the head as I too years ago had much the same question that I had to get answered.  But I will say one thing that needs to qualify this a bit more in that even natural disasters will cause suffering if we let it.  I'm not saying this in regards to physical pain, although some of that may be ameliorated too, but more in regards to not letting things that go wrong tear us apart. 

Yes, we will have emotions, and that's not a bad thing, but we're hopefully not to let these emotions carry us away, if you know what I mean. 

[SteveC]

According to Gil Fronsdal (www.insightmeditationcenter.org/imc-iah.html):

"The Second Noble Truth states that ... what causes our suffering, is craving. In Pali, the word is tanha, which literally means thirst. It is sometimes translated as desire but this tends to suggest that all desires are a problem. What causes suffering is desire (or aversion) that is driven, compulsive. Craving means both being driven toward experiences and objects, as well as feeling compelled to push them away. Whether craving is subtle or gross, if we aren't mindful, we won't be aware of how it contributes to our suffering."

Does craving cause suffering?

If a person is perpetually hungry, ever wanting more and more... craving security, material possessions, love, vengeance, power, time... I'm pretty certain they'll suffer. There is no way we can have everything we desire. But it is not the desire that causes problem. It is the craving.

Do you agree or disagree?

If you are not a Buddhist, does your own tradition contain a similar concept?

This exercise in self awareness is lost on those without jobs, homes, and stable relationships.

[Edit].............................and without hair!

Ha!, I said it first!

[Flitzerbiest]

Without a doubt craving leads to suffering, but I have a hard time with the proposition that craving is the cause of suffering.  I tend to think that the Buddha identified craving as an avoidable cause, not the one and only cause.  An obvious counterexample is suffering brought about by natural disasters.

Again, you've pretty much hit it on the head as I too years ago had much the same question that I had to get answered.  But I will say one thing that needs to qualify this a bit more in that even natural disasters will cause suffering if we let it.  I'm not saying this in regards to physical pain, although some of that may be ameliorated too, but more in regards to not letting things that go wrong tear us apart. 

Yes, we will have emotions, and that's not a bad thing, but we're hopefully not to let these emotions carry us away, if you know what I mean. 

Our agreement is unsurprising since we are both scientifically minded, and I am a ChriJuBu.

I think what the Buddha was getting at was that craving is the only cause of suffering that we are able to successfully address.

[Kartari]

Without a doubt craving leads to suffering, but I have a hard time with the proposition that craving is the cause of suffering.  I tend to think that the Buddha identified craving as an avoidable cause, not the one and only cause.  An obvious counterexample is suffering brought about by natural disasters.

Again, you've pretty much hit it on the head as I too years ago had much the same question that I had to get answered.  But I will say one thing that needs to qualify this a bit more in that even natural disasters will cause suffering if we let it.  I'm not saying this in regards to physical pain, although some of that may be ameliorated too, but more in regards to not letting things that go wrong tear us apart. 

Yes, we will have emotions, and that's not a bad thing, but we're hopefully not to let these emotions carry us away, if you know what I mean. 

Our agreement is unsurprising since we are both scientifically minded, and I am a ChriJuBu.

I think what the Buddha was getting at was that craving is the only cause of suffering that we are able to successfully address.

I agree.  Meditation will not stop an earthquake.  But it will aid one in dealing with an earthquake (and all other uncontrollable experiences of suffering) with a fully present and effective mind (rather than uncontrollably fall prey to wailing, save yourself out of fear and suffer guilt indefinitely, etc.).

[Kartari]

According to Gil Fronsdal (www.insightmeditationcenter.org/imc-iah.html):

"The Second Noble Truth states that ... what causes our suffering, is craving. In Pali, the word is tanha, which literally means thirst. It is sometimes translated as desire but this tends to suggest that all desires are a problem. What causes suffering is desire (or aversion) that is driven, compulsive. Craving means both being driven toward experiences and objects, as well as feeling compelled to push them away. Whether craving is subtle or gross, if we aren't mindful, we won't be aware of how it contributes to our suffering."

Does craving cause suffering?

Absolutely.  The Buddha taught non-dualism, the refraining of thinking in terms of dualities (gain and loss, pleasure and pain, etc.).  To crave or repulse is to fear; to accept and be in the present moment is to eliminate fear and be truly at peace.  Glad you mentioned both craving and aversion, two sides of the same coin.

If a person is perpetually hungry, ever wanting more and more... craving security, material possessions, love, vengeance, power, time... I'm pretty certain they'll suffer. There is no way we can have everything we desire. But it is not the desire that causes problem. It is the craving.

Do you agree or disagree?

I do agree, though I also wonder more as I get older if desire is not inherently linked with craving and aversion.  There are a few Buddhists I've debated elsewhere who have told me that desire inherently bears the burden of suffering (e.g. that desire must be extinguished to cease craving/aversion).  This is not to say they advocate repression or suppression (which is in fact discouraged).  Rather, they simply said that, sooner or later, a person on the path will naturally and eventually come to cease desiring.  A good analogy is the way an elderly person regards sex vs. a young person: the desire itself, like all conditioned things, simply passes away; its luster diminishes as wisdom grows.  Hence the three different levels of Precepts (voluntary virtues to abide by): the Five Precepts (the most lenient, intended for most laypeople; refrain from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, and intoxicants), the Eight Precepts (for very serious laypeople, including celibacy), and the Ten Precepts (the strictest, intended for monks and nuns).

[Flitzerbiest]

Hence the three different levels of Precepts (voluntary virtues to abide by): the Five Precepts (the most lenient, intended for most laypeople; refrain from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, and intoxicants), the Eight Precepts (for very serious laypeople, including celibacy), and the Ten Precepts (the strictest, intended for monks and nuns).

I'm glad you brought this up.  I would love to see a thread on the 5/8/10 precepts from someone substantially more knowledgeable than me.

[Kartari]

Hence the three different levels of Precepts (voluntary virtues to abide by): the Five Precepts (the most lenient, intended for most laypeople; refrain from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, and intoxicants), the Eight Precepts (for very serious laypeople, including celibacy), and the Ten Precepts (the strictest, intended for monks and nuns).

I'm glad you brought this up.  I would love to see a thread on the 5/8/10 precepts from someone substantially more knowledgeable than me.

Hint, hint.   I'll give it a shot...

[fenn]

Natural disasters? I would suffer profoundly in a Katrina-like situation. But this would be from desire, craving, attachment and aversion - I would crave my family if I lost them, also my friends, my pets, my home and my things, my health if it was ruined, a hot bath, telephone, internet, a decent meal, I think I could be excused for wanting a drink or a cigarrette in that situation as well...if I was in a Superdome situation I might feel aversion to the people there and certainly towards the floodwaters and the officials who weren't doing a thing to help us. I am only human! I think a strong practice would make me less miserable, though. Maybe I could see whoever was there as emblematic of the people I was missing, things like that. And the root of the suffering really is craving. Just my take, I'm not qualified to give Dharma talks.

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