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[John T Mainer]

What do they make you do kwd111?

Washington, DC (LifeNews.com) -- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton testified before a Congressional committee on Thursday where two pro-life members of Congress presented her with a long lecture on abortion and how it hurts women. Clinton appeared before the House Foreign Affairs Committee to talk about the International Affairs Budget.

Congressmen Chris Smith, a New Jersey Republican, and Jeff Fortenberry, a Nebraska Republican, both addressed pro-life issues during the hearing.

Smith, who had frequently led the fight against abortion on an international scale, made his full remarks with Clinton sitting as the lone witness at the witness table.

"Secretary Clinton, the most persecuted and at risk minority in the world today are unborn children," Smith said. "Pregnancy is not a disease. The child in the womb is neither a tumor nor a parasite to be destroyed."

Smith said he is troubled by President Barack Obama's decision to overturn the Mexico City Policy and open the door forcing taxpayers to fund abortions in other nations.

If you don't like the politicians decisions, you have two decisions.  Vote them out, and put different politicians in office.  Or, revolt and violently overthrow the government. 

Either option you choose, whining about it never got it done. 

Personally, I have the view that people should take responsibility for their own actions, and this includes carrying for a baby if you don't have enough self control to keep your legs crossed.  However, I recognize the fact that people are going to do what they want anyway.  I do not feel that it is the governments place to dictate behavior at all. 

As far as my anarchism goes, yes, I think we all would be better of without government involvement.  However, I recognize that the governments that we live in are, for the most part, benign.  That is why we are able to have this discussion.  When governments start dictating behavior is when we have a problem.  I know I don't wish to go this way, and I suspect that neither do you.  For it is not just the behaviors that you detest that will be proscribed. 

all

Funny how it takes two to make a baby, but only one gets to be stuck with the consequences.  The woman's life gets to be endangered, her body gets to work 24hrs a day, without break or hope of relief for almost a year, with risk to her life; something no civilian would accept as working conditions.  To force a man to suspend all his civil rights, to coerce him into forced labour, and endanger his very life, I would have to pass the "War Measures Act" in parliament, and show reason why the very survival of the state required the placing of its citizenry in danger.  A woman aparantly does not enjoy the same rights, being not a free human citizen, but a draft animal, a brood mare.

Funny how even the anarchists demand for freedom ends at HIS own skin.  If your born a HER you are SOL.  Respect for life?  I could puke. 

Even in cases of ectopic pregnancies, where the death of the mother is likely, and the survival of the fetus IS NOT POSSIBLE, many religious hospitals will not perform the necessary abortion until and unless the fetus heart stops before killing the mother  http://www.christianawarenessnetwork.com/tubalpregnancy.html, fortunately not all religious hospitals are so willing to kill women for their personal satisfaction, New York State Catholic hospitals actually follow the medical standards of their profession and treat ectopic pregnancies to save the mothers life, without reguard for the doomed fetus http://www.svcmc.org/11634.cfm

[kwd111]

What do they make you do kwd111?

Washington, DC (LifeNews.com) -- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton testified before a Congressional committee on Thursday where two pro-life members of Congress presented her with a long lecture on abortion and how it hurts women. Clinton appeared before the House Foreign Affairs Committee to talk about the International Affairs Budget.

Congressmen Chris Smith, a New Jersey Republican, and Jeff Fortenberry, a Nebraska Republican, both addressed pro-life issues during the hearing.

Smith, who had frequently led the fight against abortion on an international scale, made his full remarks with Clinton sitting as the lone witness at the witness table.

"Secretary Clinton, the most persecuted and at risk minority in the world today are unborn children," Smith said. "Pregnancy is not a disease. The child in the womb is neither a tumor nor a parasite to be destroyed."

Smith said he is troubled by President Barack Obama's decision to overturn the Mexico City Policy and open the door forcing taxpayers to fund abortions in other nations.

If you don't like the politicians decisions, you have two decisions.  Vote them out, and put different politicians in office.  Or, revolt and violently overthrow the government. 

Either option you choose, whining about it never got it done. 

Personally, I have the view that people should take responsibility for their own actions, and this includes carrying for a baby if you don't have enough self control to keep your legs crossed.  However, I recognize the fact that people are going to do what they want anyway.  I do not feel that it is the governments place to dictate behavior at all. 

As far as my anarchism goes, yes, I think we all would be better of without government involvement.  However, I recognize that the governments that we live in are, for the most part, benign.  That is why we are able to have this discussion.  When governments start dictating behavior is when we have a problem.  I know I don't wish to go this way, and I suspect that neither do you.  For it is not just the behaviors that you detest that will be proscribed. 

all

Funny how it takes two to make a baby, but only one gets to be stuck with the consequences.  The woman's life gets to be endangered, her body gets to work 24hrs a day, without break or hope of relief for almost a year, with risk to her life; something no civilian would accept as working conditions.  To force a man to suspend all his civil rights, to coerce him into forced labour, and endanger his very life, I would have to pass the "War Measures Act" in parliament, and show reason why the very survival of the state required the placing of its citizenry in danger.  A woman aparantly does not enjoy the same rights, being not a free human citizen, but a draft animal, a brood mare.

I understand where you are coming from but I am not sure you are seeing the full scope.

1)  Having a baby is no more dangerous that smoking or driving
2)  Mother has recourse in demanding child support
3)  Mother CAN give the baby up for adoption
4)  You are right in that the woman does not enjoy the same rights as a man for the man is still unable to carry a baby for the 9 months term.

Even in cases of ectopic pregnancies, where the death of the mother is likely, and the survival of the fetus IS NOT POSSIBLE, many religious hospitals will not perform the necessary abortion until and unless the fetus heart stops before killing the mother  http://www.christianawarenessnetwork.com/tubalpregnancy.html,  fortunately not all religious hospitals are so willing to kill women for their personal satisfaction, New York State Catholic hospitals actually follow the medical standards of their profession and treat ectopic pregnancies to save the mothers life, without reguard for the doomed fetus http://www.svcmc.org/11634.cfm

Didn't know that...  but I think your statement would be better said that "some" don't perform and "many" still do.  IMO

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

Hmmmm.... either I read things wrong or you read it wrong...  I think he referred to the Early Church (2,000 years ago)  - not King Olaf's time frame (1,000 years ago).

In this case... I think it is obvious that you misread it - in as much as he specifically said 2,000 years ago.

Please go back now and read it in context...  here it is again...

Then he obviously was mistaken in seeing that it applied to me.  Not to mention the topic at hand.

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

Funny how it takes two to make a baby, but only one gets to be stuck with the consequences.  The woman's life gets to be endangered, her body gets to work 24hrs a day, without break or hope of relief for almost a year, with risk to her life; something no civilian would accept as working conditions.  To force a man to suspend all his civil rights, to coerce him into forced labour, and endanger his very life, I would have to pass the "War Measures Act" in parliament, and show reason why the very survival of the state required the placing of its citizenry in danger.  A woman aparantly does not enjoy the same rights, being not a free human citizen, but a draft animal, a brood mare.

Funny how even the anarchists demand for freedom ends at HIS own skin.  If your born a HER you are SOL.  Respect for life?  I could puke. 

John, I tried very hard to say that I was relating my own personal opinion.  That is related as a male who will likely not be faced with the decisions. 

When you get down to it, this issue is based on the difference of killing, and murder (or killing without cause).  Abortion is killing but is it the killing without cause that some might have you believe?  Only the people who are put in that situation can decide for themselves. 

There is a big difference in time frames.  I'm in my mid 30's now, have a stable job with the resulting income, yada yada. 

I couldn't dictate to a person who was in their teens, with a future and goals that if there future and goals were thrown away, or threatened to be thrown away, that this isn't enough cause. 

For me it's just responsibility, for them it could be something else. 

Even given what I personally think I would do at this point in my life, I do not think that that applies to anyone else, or that the government should be making laws regarding it. 

all

[Acumen]

Hmmmm.... either I read things wrong or you read it wrong...  I think he referred to the Early Church (2,000 years ago)  - not King Olaf's time frame (1,000 years ago).

In this case... I think it is obvious that you misread it - in as much as he specifically said 2,000 years ago.

Please go back now and read it in context...  here it is again...

Then he obviously was mistaken in seeing that it applied to me.  Not to mention the topic at hand.

I'm not sure what that means.  My objection was to your implication that KWD's Christianity is merely a product of our cultural surroundings, since our nation is predominantly Christian.  However, when Christianity was merely a kernel planted into infertile ground, it managed to grow by way of secret meetings, martyrdom, and a genuine need for a more personal God.

If you can't logically pawn that off as an outcrop of cultural submergence, then how can you say that you were "not able to think of a scenario" where KWD became a Christian without being compelled by a predominant Christian culture? 

[John T Mainer]

ATGNWT has once again made a very interesting point, the decisions he finds insupportable as a man in this thirties of independent means do not include abortion.  Were he a destitute teenage woman he might think differently.  He is honest enough not to want a governement of old rich men being the ones to pass laws that bind the latter to the choices of the former.

In the army we were taught to never second guess the man on the ground.  Only they knew the choices they faced, and the situation as they saw it.  Hind sight and perfect world morality are equal use as fertilizer, and no use as anything else.

The world is filled with no win situations, and survival situation ethics bear little resemblance to ideals found in the coffee houses and salons.  Pretending otherwise is a crime against those who have already paid more than you in blood, pain, and tears.

[kwd111]

The world is filled with no win situations, and survival situation ethics bear little resemblance to ideals found in the coffee houses and salons.  Pretending otherwise is a crime against those who have already paid more than you in blood, pain, and tears.

Quite frankly I disagree...

Verily, it is those who gave their blood, pain and tears for the survival of ethics that we should honor.  

"2. The Cadet Honor Code.


a. The Cadet Honor Code is defined as "A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do." The Honor Code expresses four succinct prohibitions. On a behavioral level, the Code represents a simple standard for all cadets. On a developmental plane, West Point expects that all cadets will strive to live far above the minimum standard of behavior and develop a commitment to ethical principles guiding moral actions."

It is the very coffee houses that produce "situational ethics".  In a no win situation... you still vote "win".

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

I'm not sure what that means.  My objection was to your implication that KWD's Christianity is merely a product of our cultural surroundings, since our nation is predominantly Christian.  However, when Christianity was merely a kernel planted into infertile ground, it managed to grow by way of secret meetings, martyrdom, and a genuine need for a more personal God.

What it means is that they have been many times and many places that Christianity has become the predominate religion of the area, with different religions being "replaced" for different reasons.  You can't take a generalization about one area and make it apply to another. 

On a personal note, it would be hard to get a more personal god than one that you have met yourself.  I'd kindly ask that if you have to read about yours in a book, you might not even want to start down that road. 

If you can't logically pawn that off as an outcrop of cultural submergence, then how can you say that you were "not able to think of a scenario" where KWD became a Christian without being compelled by a predominant Christian culture? 

I can think of a scenario that KWD became a Christian without being compelled by a predominately Christian culture, but, I have never met anyone who fulfills that scenario.  If it is fulfilled, it is up to KWD to say it, not you making arguments about the start of Christianity. 

all

[John T Mainer]

The world is filled with no win situations, and survival situation ethics bear little resemblance to ideals found in the coffee houses and salons.  Pretending otherwise is a crime against those who have already paid more than you in blood, pain, and tears.

Quite frankly I disagree...

Verily, it is those who gave their blood, pain and tears for the survival of ethics that we should honor.  

"2. The Cadet Honor Code.


a. The Cadet Honor Code is defined as "A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do." The Honor Code expresses four succinct prohibitions. On a behavioral level, the Code represents a simple standard for all cadets. On a developmental plane, West Point expects that all cadets will strive to live far above the minimum standard of behavior and develop a commitment to ethical principles guiding moral actions."

It is the very coffee houses that produce "situational ethics".  In a no win situation... you still vote "win".

And yet those same cadets will as officers knowingly brief their troops with false information, as they do not have "need to know" the truth.  Those same cadets as officers will lie to allies and their own press for strategic reasons for their entire careers.  At higher levels, those officers will conduct deliberate campaigns of misinformation to create the conditions necessary for victory, breaking faith even with their own dead.  From my own personal knowledge, men who have died for their country on foreign soil under their national command authority have been listed as killed in training accidents, or even automobile accidents.  

Stealing is encouraged, we attempt to seize enemy assets at every opportunity.  We seize the assets of criminals, and of foreign nationals whenever we can scrape up a justification or pretext.  In WWII, we seized the properties of the Japanese Canadians and Americans (none of the white folk we were fighting of course) and interred them in camps.  Good deal for the carpet baggers who got to buy the stolen goods at pennies on the dollar.  Not such a hot deal for the people, including decorated veterans, who were interred in camps while we stole their life savings and land.  Oliver North (US Naval Academy Graduate) was educated under a similar cadet code, and lied to his own elected officials.

I'm sorry, but cadet honour codes are like kindergarden rules; good for instilling the desired values, but understood not to be workable in that big old nasty world filled with things that really do want to hurt you, or are willing to sit back and watch you starve, as long as it doesn't make them late for church.

No win situations exist.  If you cant see them around you, is it that you cannot see, or prefer to not see?  I can't answer that one, and I wonder how offended you choose to become, rather than honestly thinking about it. You really can tell a lot about people by their defensive reactions.  I've helped more than a few former smug middle class people whose world view didn't survive losing everything.  It turns out that the choices so smugly seen in the coffee houses and salons disappear along with your resources and power.  I hope you never find out that way, but I wish you grow in wisdom before judging others.

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

The world is filled with no win situations, and survival situation ethics bear little resemblance to ideals found in the coffee houses and salons.  Pretending otherwise is a crime against those who have already paid more than you in blood, pain, and tears.

I was a big hit (sarcasm) at my CCW class when they asked what we would do if someone pointed a gun at us and gave us an order.  See, part of the training was real scenarios and what we would do.

I replied "probably crap myself and do whatever they said."

They are so used to false bravado and fake toughness that no one wanted to admit to actually being human.  

Hind sight is always 20-20, and it's always easier to say what you would do than to actually do it.  

all

[kwd111]

The world is filled with no win situations, and survival situation ethics bear little resemblance to ideals found in the coffee houses and salons.  Pretending otherwise is a crime against those who have already paid more than you in blood, pain, and tears.

Quite frankly I disagree...

Verily, it is those who gave their blood, pain and tears for the survival of ethics that we should honor.  

"2. The Cadet Honor Code.


a. The Cadet Honor Code is defined as "A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do." The Honor Code expresses four succinct prohibitions. On a behavioral level, the Code represents a simple standard for all cadets. On a developmental plane, West Point expects that all cadets will strive to live far above the minimum standard of behavior and develop a commitment to ethical principles guiding moral actions."

It is the very coffee houses that produce "situational ethics".  In a no win situation... you still vote "win".

And yet those same cadets will as officers knowingly brief their troops with false information, as they do not have "need to know" the truth.  Those same cadets as officers will lie to allies and their own press for strategic reasons for their entire careers.  At higher levels, those officers will conduct deliberate campaigns of misinformation to create the conditions necessary for victory, breaking faith even with their own dead.  From my own personal knowledge, men who have died for their country on foreign soil under their national command authority have been listed as killed in training accidents, or even automobile accidents.  

Stealing is encouraged, we attempt to seize enemy assets at every opportunity.  We seize the assets of criminals, and of foreign nationals whenever we can scrape up a justification or pretext.  In WWII, we seized the properties of the Japanese Canadians and Americans (none of the white folk we were fighting of course) and interred them in camps.  Good deal for the carpet baggers who got to buy the stolen goods at pennies on the dollar.  Not such a hot deal for the people, including decorated veterans, who were interred in camps while we stole their life savings and land.  Oliver North (US Naval Academy Graduate) was educated under a similar cadet code, and lied to his own elected officials.

I'm sorry, but cadet honour codes are like kindergarden rules;

You are welcome to your personal opinions.  What people do after is just an outward sign of what never changed in the heart.

good for instilling the desired values, but understood not to be workable in that big old nasty world filled with things that really do want to hurt you, or are willing to sit back and watch you starve, as long as it doesn't make them late for church.

Nice grandstanding.  There are still ethical positions that one can take when someone wants to hurt you.  And your "church" comment just shows that you have an ethical problem

No win situations exist.  If you cant see them around you, is it that you cannot see, or prefer to not see?

 

Perhaps you didn't read what I said... let me say it again.  There ARE no win situations... and when you are confronted with a "no win" situation - you still vote "win".

I can't answer that one, and I wonder how offended you choose to become, rather than honestly thinking about it.

Is someone offended?  Or is it the old "best defense is to create a strong offense" - however false it may be.

You really can tell a lot about people by their defensive reactions.  I've helped more than a few former smug middle class people whose world view didn't survive losing everything.

 

Yes... there are smug middle class people.  Then again there are some smug poor people and smug rich people too.  There are also strong moral and ethical poor, middle class and upper class people.  Come to think of it... I think they are all just "people".

Do you play class warfare?

It turns out that the choices so smugly seen in the coffee houses and salons disappear along with your resources and power.  I hope you never find out that way, but I wish you grow in wisdom before judging others.

I leave the judging of people to God.  However, I did have to judge the fruit of the actions of my children.  Do you have children?

[kwd111]

The world is filled with no win situations, and survival situation ethics bear little resemblance to ideals found in the coffee houses and salons.  Pretending otherwise is a crime against those who have already paid more than you in blood, pain, and tears.

I was a big hit (sarcasm) at my CCW class when they asked what we would do if someone pointed a gun at us and gave us an order.  See, part of the training was real scenarios and what we would do.

I replied "probably crap myself and do whatever they said."

They are so used to false bravado and fake toughness that no one wanted to admit to actually being human.  

Hind sight is always 20-20, and it's always easier to say what you would do than to actually do it.  

all

That is a good point.  It is in the fire that we find what we will do and what we won't do.  Some sit on the potty but some throw themselves and take the bullet.

Don't know what I would do until I am confronted with it.  However, I may play it in my mind and hope that I will maintain a position of wisdom and moral character.  It is understandable, however, that no one is perfect and we can all fail at the attempt.

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

The world is filled with no win situations, and survival situation ethics bear little resemblance to ideals found in the coffee houses and salons.  Pretending otherwise is a crime against those who have already paid more than you in blood, pain, and tears.

I was a big hit (sarcasm) at my CCW class when they asked what we would do if someone pointed a gun at us and gave us an order.  See, part of the training was real scenarios and what we would do.

I replied "probably crap myself and do whatever they said."

They are so used to false bravado and fake toughness that no one wanted to admit to actually being human.  

Hind sight is always 20-20, and it's always easier to say what you would do than to actually do it.  

all

That is a good point.  It is in the fire that we find what we will do and what we won't do.  Some sit on the potty but some throw themselves and take the bullet.

Don't know what I would do until I am confronted with it.  However, I may play it in my mind and hope that I will maintain a position of wisdom and moral character.  It is understandable, however, that no one is perfect and we can all fail at the attempt.

 If you don't mind....

I think what you are saying is that if you ask people who are in a no win situation if they will win or not, they will invariably say yes, otherwise they would not take action. 

I think John's point( and if it isn't John's point, it will become mine) is that sometimes you are confronted by a situation that you know that you can't win no matter what you do, but you fight anyway. 

Like I said before, I lean towards this stance.  Really, I am a Heathen in a Christian society, an Anarchist in a political society, and a Chiropractor in a Medical society.  Almost every stance that I would take beyond a personal nature will lose!

all

[kwd111]

The world is filled with no win situations, and survival situation ethics bear little resemblance to ideals found in the coffee houses and salons.  Pretending otherwise is a crime against those who have already paid more than you in blood, pain, and tears.

I was a big hit (sarcasm) at my CCW class when they asked what we would do if someone pointed a gun at us and gave us an order.  See, part of the training was real scenarios and what we would do.

I replied "probably crap myself and do whatever they said."

They are so used to false bravado and fake toughness that no one wanted to admit to actually being human.  

Hind sight is always 20-20, and it's always easier to say what you would do than to actually do it.  

all

That is a good point.  It is in the fire that we find what we will do and what we won't do.  Some sit on the potty but some throw themselves and take the bullet.

Don't know what I would do until I am confronted with it.  However, I may play it in my mind and hope that I will maintain a position of wisdom and moral character.  It is understandable, however, that no one is perfect and we can all fail at the attempt.

 If you don't mind....

   Don't mind at all

I think what you are saying is that if you ask people who are in a no win situation if they will win or not, they will invariably say yes, otherwise they would not take action. 

No... not what I am saying.

I think John's point( and if it isn't John's point, it will become mine) is that sometimes you are confronted by a situation that you know that you can't win no matter what you do, but you fight anyway. 

Yes... this is what I am saying.  That even when it is a "no win" situation - you still fight for what is right.  But I don't think that is what John was saying thought.

However, I have been wrong before.

Like I said before, I lean towards this stance.  Really, I am a Heathen in a Christian society, an Anarchist in a political society, and a Chiropractor in a Medical society.  Almost every stance that I would take beyond a personal nature will lose!

all

Chiropractors are great, we can fix the Heathen part and that might take care of the Anarchy problem.   

Blessings to you, my friend.

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

Yes... this is what I am saying.  That even when it is a "no win" situation - you still fight for what is right.  But I don't think that is what John was saying thought.

However, I have been wrong before.

That is what I got.  The way I understood it is that you really can't judge the choices that someone in those situations have made, until you are actually in those situations yourself. 

I agree.  People who have never had "X" are always seemingly eager to offer advice on what they did.  People who have actually lived through no win situations no what it's like, and are not as eager to relay that information.  They have been there.  They know what it is like.

It may be all well and good for us to say now that we would never make that decision, but we won't really know unless we are put in that situation. 

Chiropractors are great, we can fix the Heathen part and that might take care of the Anarchy problem.   

Blessings to you, my friend.

I don't think the heathen thing is related to the anarchy thing.  I think it is more related to the Chiropractic thing.  I'm self employed, and don't like to be told what to do.  I think I've just followed that above and beyond.  After all, John is heathen, and not anarchist. 

Anyway, I mean no offense here, but I don't think it is within your power to change the heathen thing.

 

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