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[Acumen]

Yes, Channah, we covered that before - but I explained that away.  Evil is created when a law is given - it is passive in the creation of evil - it is created by creating a law.  God created a law ergo evil is defined... but He didn't create it literally.

And then we come back to God sending his evil spirit (Ruach Elokim Raah), the 'Elokim' bit noting that it's GOD's evil spirit - to torment Saul. Not Ruach ha Satan Raah (the evil spirit of the Satan), but Ruach Elokim (God's spirit).

I did notice how the KJV did a complete blip on that one when I looked up the translation in English.

Why do you believe that the evil spirit was God's?  

Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech.

For all we know, God could have sent Satan to create some conflict between the two mentioned parties.  And no, I don't believe that the word Satan needs to be used in order to refer to him.  

Because the Hebrew says very precisely that it was God's spirit (I didn't look up the Judges quote, I'm still in Samuel and Kings here). Just like when God sent his lying spirit to the mouths of the prophets to help drive Saul mad.

As a Christian, I am taught that Satan is the father of lies.  So it makes good sense to consider the lying spirit to be of Satan.  And just like in Job, it is not impossible for God to make good use of Satan to reach His perfect end.

If the writers had wanted to say that God sent Satan, they would have said God sent Satan, or God sent the spirit of the Satan. It doesn't say that, though. It says God sent his own evil spirit and lying spirit on those occasions.

Why?  Why must the authors say what you expect them to say?  The problem here is that you are limited in how you see Satan.  Satan, according to Judaism, is not an evil being, but rather an instrument to be used of God against Israel.  Therefore, when an evil spirit is mentioned, it is unlikely that you will consider it to be Satan.  Christians, on the other hand, understand Satan to be evil, and therefore it fits quite nicely into our explanations.

The idea, in the Hebrew bible, anyway, is that God is responsible for all things - the good and the evil. Not that the evil comes about because God made a law against something, but that God is the creator of evil.

KWD has a valid point.  Evil is evil because laws exist.  Without laws, good and evil cannot be defined.  And since God is the divine lawmaker, He creates evil indirectly via human action.  But this is not the same as God creating evil through an evil act.

If you don't know any Hebrew, I'm not sure how I can get that across to you. And I'm not even trying to promote a theological point of view here - I'm simply telling you what the plain text says.

Nice try.  We have scholars too who are versed in Hebrew who are saying the same things we are saying.

[Chanah]

Then do please ask your scholars to translate the phrase 'Ruach Elokim Raah' and tell me what they say.

I have no reason to lie to you about it.

[Howiedds]

Kwd:

Yes, Channah, we covered that before - but I explained that away.  Evil is created when a law is given - it is passive in the creation of evil - it is created by creating a law.  God created a law ergo evil is defined... but He didn't create it literally.

That's right out of Paul, not that there's anything wrong with that for you.

An all powerful God can all powerfully give man power.  It doesn't make Him any less all-powerful.

We may be playing with words here, but Jews believe that God gives humankind free will not power. The phrase is that "God knows, but man chooses."

Chanah:
I personally don't see God as much interested in human-kind, and I think whilst God may have created natural law, God doesn't much interfere with it

The "watchmaker" view of God, in good company with the Deists of the 18th century Enlightenment era.

Understand but don't agree.  I think that the whole history of Israel denotes a God who is interested in human-kind.  But that is my view.  Certainly it appears that He is interested in my life.

One of many acceptable views in Judaism is that the biblical description of God interested in humankind is our description of, our understanding of God.

[Acumen]

Then do please ask your scholars to translate the phrase 'Ruach Elokim Raah' and tell me what they say.

I have no reason to lie to you about it.

I didn't say that you lied.  I just don't like the whole "get back to me when you know Hebrew" approach.  It sounds elitist to me - especially we Christians have access to scholars well versed in Hebrew who interpret the text to be talking about Satan.

I will not quarrel with you about the literal rendering of the passage.  I understand that these passages do not mention Satan by name, but that does not necessarily mean that it wasn't referring to satan.

[Howiedds]

Chanah:

Maybe Howie can explain it better, if he's up to it.

No I can't. You explained it very well. The Hebrew is very clear.

You also explained well the Jewish concept of evil not being independent of God. Jews believe, as difficult as it is for us to understand, God is responsible for all.

 Satan is mentioned 19 times in the Tanakh. The 14 times in Job, the 3 in Zechariah, 1 in Psalm 106,  and once in 1 Chron 21:1. In all but the last, one could say “accuser” instead of the name Satan and the story would be unchanged. (In that last time, there is a parallel narrative in 2 Samuel that shows the Chronicler was trying to avoid ascribing David's act of evil to the will of God.)

OTH, Satan is mentioned 37 times in Christian Testament, everyone of which it is a name of a divine being who causes evil.

It is important to note that the inclination for good is also an "aspect of hasatan." Hasatan is neither good nor evil and functions only to accuse individual human beings of wrongdoing before the divine throne. (A metaphor, to be sure.) It would be very wrong to stereotype such an angel as evil (or good).

It is Christianity which created the notion that there is an evil being named satan. No such evil being exists in Torah, in Heaven, in the Earth, or under the Earth. Hasatan, OTOH, exists to bring before the throne every evil deed - so it is easy to understand how the office and function got confused with the essence of the deeds being accused. But in this case, the only "evil" is mankind in disobedience, or, more precisely, the actions that result of our individual choices to not do good.

[Howiedds]

Acumen:

I didn't say that you lied.  I just don't like the whole "get back to me when you know Hebrew" approach.  It sounds elitist to me -

And that is your problem, isn't it?

especially we Christians have access to scholars well versed in Hebrew who interpret the text to be talking about Satan.

You have been shown again and again how the Christian scholars who have given you your translations have mistranslated because they misunderstood the idiom of the Hebrew and did it word for word missing the definition or actually changed the tenses and numbers for the sake of Christology.

I will not quarrel with you about the literal rendering of the passage.  I understand that these passages do not mention Satan by name, but that does not necessarily mean that it wasn't referring to satan.

LOL! If I had dared to give you such an explanation you would do a whole paragraph on the interpretation of rabbinic Judaism not being what the testament actually said.

[Acumen]

Acumen:

I didn't say that you lied.  I just don't like the whole "get back to me when you know Hebrew" approach.  It sounds elitist to me -

And that is your problem, isn't it?

??

especially we Christians have access to scholars well versed in Hebrew who interpret the text to be talking about Satan.

You have been shown again and again how the Christian scholars who have given you your translations have mistranslated because they misunderstood the idiom of the Hebrew and did it word for word missing the definition or actually changed the tenses and numbers for the sake of Christology.

I'm not talking about translators, but biblical scholars/commentators versed in Hebrew.

I will not quarrel with you about the literal rendering of the passage.  I understand that these passages do not mention Satan by name, but that does not necessarily mean that it wasn't referring to satan.

LOL! If I had dared to give you such an explanation you would do a whole paragraph on the interpretation of rabbinic Judaism not being what the testament actually said.

I think you misunderstood what I said.  I'm not opting for an allegorical rendering of the passage to rationalize my religious point of view.  I'm saying that the scriptures, due to context, can refer to a concept without specifically mentioning it.  Not sure what's so funny.

[Chanah]

OK, Howie - I knew that.  But this one's confused:  Jesus is not GOD, but we Jews should 'respect Him' - notice the capital 'H'! - for reasons undisclosed.  And now she's claiming the Torah ALONE can be 'proved true', and that I don't believe in Judaism because I refuse to take Torah as literally as Evangelical Christians do.....

Did I say I thought she was confused?

Did she offer to share what she was smoking?

It sounds like a missionary tactic to me. First they start out with Yeshua, who's a rabbi, then a prophet, then a miracle worker, then a capital H him, then ... we know where that story goes.

As for taking Torah literally, uhh...that's cos the ev0l Pharisees (I miss fenn!) corrupted our understanding of it with their 'traditions of men'.

I have no idea what that actually means, but it's code for Jews don't understand our own scriptures. Struck blind by God, children of our father the devil, too stupid and blindly following our leaders (they obviously don't know us very well), pick your poison.

Is this chick J4J or Chosen People?

[kwd111]

Kwd:

Yes, Channah, we covered that before - but I explained that away.  Evil is created when a law is given - it is passive in the creation of evil - it is created by creating a law.  God created a law ergo evil is defined... but He didn't create it literally.

That's right out of Paul, not that there's anything wrong with that for you.

Although Paul did quote it - it is actually very logical and, as I view it, from God.

In Nevada there is a strip of road where there is no speed limit.  It is therefore impossible to be an "evil or reckless driver" as far as speed limits are concerned.  However, if the law puts up a sign of 75 MPH - there is an automatic declaration of what is evil because a law is given.

The law is a passive maker of evil.  However... it is the one who drives the car over the speed limit that make the evil.  One could say that the law makers created the "law" of good and created the "law" of evil - but it is the driver that actually does the evil.

Even today people have gotten away with things because there is no law to say it is wrong.  Laws are continually being made to determine what is evil by stating what is right.

You could say that eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil wasn't a bad thing until God said "Don't eat of it".  It was His declaration of what was good and what was evil that determined it.  You could say He didn't create evil... Adam created it the moment He ate of the Tree.

An all powerful God can all powerfully give man power.  It doesn't make Him any less all-powerful.

We may be playing with words here, but Jews believe that God gives humankind free will not power. The phrase is that "God knows, but man chooses."

Isn't free will not a power?  No one can take that power of free will away from man.  Not even a law.

Chanah:
I personally don't see God as much interested in human-kind, and I think whilst God may have created natural law, God doesn't much interfere with it

The "watchmaker" view of God, in good company with the Deists of the 18th century Enlightenment era.

I love the video on it.

Understand but don't agree.  I think that the whole history of Israel denotes a God who is interested in human-kind.  But that is my view.  Certainly it appears that He is interested in my life.

One of many acceptable views in Judaism is that the biblical description of God interested in humankind is our description of, our understanding of God.

And it is beautiful, isn't it?

[kwd111]

kwd:

If, as you say, they are "all aspects of Deity, not separate entities", wouldn't that equate to the same understanding that we have?  The Lord God - He is one God.  Just different aspects or manifestations of who He is.

I don't mean to be telling you about your own faith, but just a bit of history here. The Church went 'round and 'round and nearly came to blows between east and west over the trinity meaning "persons" versus "aspects" or "manifestations" of God. It was really a language problem between east and west that escalated into a religious controversy, but the final outcome was that the trinity was not aspects of God but 3 persons.

Yes... man does have difficulty explaining about God's makeup... doesn't he?

I like the Hebrew though... Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God (plural) is one Lord: (singular)  (Obviously my Christian view - but that is how we can still maintain a monotheistic understanding)

I could say I am three persons too... the person of my body, the person of my soul, and the person of my spirit.

But I think we have already murdered this topic.  

[kwd111]

Yes, Channah, we covered that before - but I explained that away.  Evil is created when a law is given - it is passive in the creation of evil - it is created by creating a law.  God created a law ergo evil is defined... but He didn't create it literally.

And then we come back to God sending his evil spirit (Ruach Elokim Raah), the 'Elokim' bit noting that it's GOD's evil spirit - to torment Saul. Not Ruach ha Satan Raah (the evil spirit of the Satan), but Ruach Elokim (God's spirit).

I did notice how the KJV did a complete blip on that one when I looked up the translation in English.

Could you give me the reference?

[Chanah]

I knew it was lurking earlier in the thread. This, obviously, is not the KJV translation.

1 Samuel 16:23
And it came to pass, when the evil spirit of God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

KJV has 'from God' instead of 'of God', the rest is just nitpicky. Again, the Hebrew is Ruach Elokim Raah - making it definitely an 'of God' or 'God's evil spirit', and not some spirit laying around that God sent on its way.

And a lying spirit.

1 Kings 22:23
Now therefore, behold, the Eternal hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Eternal hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Which actually pretty much is in agreement in both translations, save KJV uses The LORD instead of the Eternal. The Hebrew is Ruach Sheker (transliteration without representation, I know). Lying Spirit is a good translation, though, and it's God who put it there and spoke evil - not the Satan.

[kwd111]

I knew it was lurking earlier in the thread. This, obviously, is not the KJV translation.

1 Samuel 16:23
And it came to pass, when the evil spirit of God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

KJV has 'from God' instead of 'of God', the rest is just nitpicky. Again, the Hebrew is Ruach Elokim Raah - making it definitely an 'of God' or 'God's evil spirit', and not some spirit laying around that God sent on its way.

And a lying spirit.

1 Kings 22:23
Now therefore, behold, the Eternal hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Eternal hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Which actually pretty much is in agreement in both translations, save KJV uses The LORD instead of the Eternal. The Hebrew is Ruach Sheker (transliteration without representation, I know). Lying Spirit is a good translation, though, and it's God who put it there and spoke evil - not the Satan.

I'm sure there are those who understand it as such.  I don't subscribe to that thought.  I prefer the following:


This demon is called "an evil spirit (coming) from Jehovah," because Jehovah had sent it as a punishment, or "an evil spirit of God" (Elohim: v. 15), or briefly "a spirit of God" (Elohim), or "the evil spirit" (v. 23, compare 1 Sam 18:10), as being a supernatural, spiritual, evil power; but never "the Spirit of Jehovah," because this is the Spirit proceeding from the holy God, which works upon men as the spirit of strength, wisdom, and knowledge, and generates and fosters the spiritual or divine life. The expression raa`aah yªhaaowh ruwach (1 Sam 19:9) is an abbreviated form for yªhaaowh mee'eet raa`aah ruwach, and is to be interpreted according.
(from Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament: New Updated Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1996 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc. All rights reserved.)


it would also be quite an interesting conundrum to have David's harp cause God's evil spirit to be removed.

[kwd111]

It would be very wrong to stereotype such an angel as evil (or good).

It is Christianity which created the notion that there is an evil being named satan. No such evil being exists in Torah, in Heaven, in the Earth, or under the Earth. Hasatan, OTOH, exists to bring before the throne every evil deed - so it is easy to understand how the office and function got confused with the essence of the deeds being accused. But in this case, the only "evil" is mankind in disobedience, or, more precisely, the actions that result of our individual choices to not do good.

I disagree, frankly.

Zech 3:1-2
3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
KJV

I think here, as well as in other places, it is quite obvious that Satan is evil and that he is a being.

First... the Lord spoke to Satan.  He rebuked him. Satan is resisting the angel of the Lord.

All denote a being and, quite frankly, doesn't measure up to your position.

To say that Christianity came up with this idea (when it was written by Jews) is to ignore what is quite obvious in the Tanakh

[LeahOne]

There's still that pesky 'ha' in front, an article, indicating it's a title and not a 'person' with a name.

And it's a prophesy:  it's the prophet trying to convey a vision he's had concerning Joshua...


I find the entire 'Satan' thing ridiculous myself:  YHVH had no trouble wiping out most of humanity in the Flood, so why would He not erase 'rebellious angels'? (And how does an angel 'rebel' anyway???)  Instead, He lets the guerilla force keep hold of this world?  Or are we living in some kind of DMZ....  Whatever!

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