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[kwd111]

I do think they say something about God - that we can't know what God is for example, except all that 'isness' (sorry, there's really not a word in English). All the isness is quite a lot, though.

In the beginning, there was sound. I don't know why I believe that part of it, but I do.

Maimonides did not pull the concept of being unable to define God positively out of nowhere. It's out of the Hebrew scriptures. Remember that even Moses couldn't see God face-to-face and live.

Our finite human minds simply can't take in the concept of Y-K-V-K.

I think that there is a difference between our minds trying to embrace the concept of Y-K-V-K - vs. knowing something about God.

Ps 23:1
Yahweh ro`iy lo'

Here, in a very real way, David found out a small facet of who Y-K-V-K was.  He was his Shepherd and that because of that facet of God, even though no one can embrace the fullness of who He is, we can at least know a portion of Him as a Shepherd or one who know His sheep and will make sure the do not want.

[CCC460]

I am not a very spiritual person.

Having faith (belief) in God, makes one spiritual, at least to a certain degree.

I have difficulty believing in a creator God

Really? I am rather surprised to hear that.

Maimonides insists that it is impossible for humans to know anything about God.

That would be true except that it seems to leave out the possibility that God has revealed himself to us, and in doing so, made it possible for us to know Him.

He is not like humans at all.

This is where there would be a break with Christian Tradition as we believe that God assumed a human nature in order to elevate our humanity into God's divinity, making us sharers in the divine nature.

When people speak about God knowing or God being all-powerful, they are saying something that they cannot know.

I disagree. We can certainly know something about God if God has revealed something of himself to us. Also, one can also know something of God if one believes that God is creator because we can observe the things of God indirectly through his creation.

That God is ontologically Love, as is affirmed in the first epistle of John is the way that we can know and experience him in each other. When we act in charity (agape) toward others, we participate in the very life of God himself.
In this way, "knowing" God is experiential.


 

[fenn]

History is littered with atrocious acts committed by people who were convinced that they were carrying out the Will-O-God(TM). That kind of thinking - 'I know what God wants' - will get you trouble sooner or later. Can't remember offhand who said this, but 'He who says he knows, doesn't know. He who says he doesn't know, knows.' As far as being charitable or compassionate, that should be a HUMAN trait, not something we do because there's some supreme being watching us. It's what separates us from insects.

[Palmtree]

All we can do is confess ignorance.

It would seem that your implication is: if we are being honest, then we should confess ignorance "to God"; and I would agree; except, how is it possible to arrive at that point, unless one can acknowledge God as Creator?

God must FIRST act on the unrepentant heart BEFORE it can reach a genuine confession of ignorance "to God". After such an act of God, then there is no longer an excuse to remain ignorant; because God actively takes the once ignorant from their ignorance, and imparts unto them His wisdom; by declaring that He is the Creator and much more.

Meanwhile, the unrepentant "wise of this world", turn away from such a notion.....

^{1 Corinthians 1:19-21
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.}

[fenn]

Cotton Mather lives.

[Palmtree]

Cotton Mather lives.

If I'm Cotton Mather, then wouldn't that make you the witch of Salem?  

[fenn]

1. How many of those people he killed were actually witches? None. 2. So what if they had been? Better to be a witch than an a-hole like the Mathers.

[Metis]

To me, we're in such a conjectural area that saying almost anything definitive is going to be based on assumptions or mere guesswork.  For example, how does one know that the Bible is the "word of God"?  Are they certain it isn't the Bhagavad Gita?  How can one tell?  Or one may say that they're being guided by some spiritual force however defined or labeled, but since humans have such powerful imaginations, how can we be certain we're not just deluding ourselves?  

To go with Fenn's post, Confucius said that the more we know, the more we know we really don't know.  So, for example, a tree is simple to a child, but complex to a botanist.  

What difference does it make if I buy into one's concept of God or not?  or their concept of Jesus?  What's wrong with taking the scriptures, regardless of whose it is, learn from them and use what's usable for us?  Why do I supposedly have to have certain politically-correct beliefs in an area so undefined?  What's wrong with saying "I don't know" if one doesn't know?  Is that less intelligent than saying "I know" in an area whereas we can't even find any objective evidence for there being a God or Gods?  Does one understand that "belief" and "evidence" are not synonymous?  

I have far more questions than I have answers, and that's just the way it is.  

[CCC460]

History is littered with atrocious acts committed by people who were convinced that they were carrying out the Will-O-God(TM). That kind of thinking - 'I know what God wants' - will get you trouble sooner or later.

That means the problem is with people, not God.


 

As far as being charitable or compassionate, that should be a HUMAN trait, not something we do because there's some supreme being watching us. It's what separates us from insects.

You are correct. And i would affirm that what makes us human is that we are created in the image and likeness of God so having charity (love) and being compassionate (sharing in the suffering of others) is nothing other than conforming to Christ.

[CCC460]

By the way, there is  BIG difference between an ignorance of God and an apophatic understanding of God.

[Palmtree]

What's wrong with saying "I don't know" if one doesn't know?

Absolutely nothing! In fact, that is the best place to begin; nevertheless, the overall assumption here seems to be: that since YOU don't KNOW, then nobody CAN know. Moreover, It would be absolutely WRONG, for those whom DO know, to pretend that they don't know, only to pacify and appease those whom genuinely don't know or don't WANT to know.

[CCC460]

I have far more questions than I have answers, and that's just the way it is.  

Fair enough. But I think that we miss something here. I would assert that belief in God or in any particular religious faith is based on an experience of God within that faith. I think there are very few people who come to a particular faith based on having questions answered (a more intellectual approach).

While I was born Catholic, I left the Church for a long time and became an evangelical. I truly came to faith as a Catholic when I came to what I believe has been a real and true encounter (which was not a 1-time event) with the risen Christ.

I think that belief and faith in God comes from a personal relational experience, not through the intellect alone.

[fenn]

Agreed, CCC, the problem IS with people. But saying that being charitable and compassionate is 'nothing other than conforming to Christ' raises objections. People could be conforming to the Bodhisattvas or their grandmother or some compassionate Orisha, or just be trying to be a better human being with no particular overtones. Your set of metaphors isn't everyones set of metaphors.

[fenn]

You experienced the risen Christ, CCC, fair enough. I'm not here to discount that. But a Hindu would have seen something different.

[fenn]

And...who DOES know? Evidence, pls.

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