Importance of Moses and Prophets

Advanced search

[Terms Of Conduct]

Terms Of Conduct

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[fenn]

Lol, not a very effective dictatorship...

[SquirleyWurley]

I understand that people like it when others are in 'learn about' mode, sitting at people's feet, asking for sharing/teaching, etc.

There is also a place for serious challenge, debate of arguments/issues/evidence/positions, etc.  I understand that some people don't particularly care to really get critical or really debate things.  I just figured it was a debate board and I need not sit at the feet of others to learn what they want to try to teach, when I have a challenge/criticism/debate argument to pursue, or a question that I am interested in having addressed.

At what point are things too flexible?  I don't see any of the religious liberals here addressing this.  Instead of dealing with my questions, I hear charges that I don't allow any flexibility.

====

Am I to take it that one may claim that God is NOT soveriegn, NOT holy, NOT just, NOT wise, and yet that this God is ALSO the God depicted in the Tanakh?  Ah, but then I'm called too inflexible when I raise that objection.

If you don't want an intellectual discussion or debate, I don't know what to say any further on this topic.  I really figured it wouldn't be hard to get some agreement on the God Is and the Importance of Moses Prophets thread.  I figured there would be disagreements but that the existence of agreement would help out.

Has anyone but a Christian agreed with me significantly on those threads yet, in the areas where one  would think religious Jews and Christians would be able to agree?

[LeahOne]

Fenn, one that could indeed be characterized as 'impotent'.....

[fenn]

Nobody expects you to fawn at their feet, SW. Challenge and debate are one thing. Being an obnoxious drunk who shows up at remedial Judaism class and keeps yammering the same nonsense is something else entirely.

[SteveC]

I understand that people like it when others are in 'learn about' mode, sitting at people's feet, asking for sharing/teaching, etc.

There is also a place for serious challenge, debate of arguments/issues/evidence/positions, etc.  I understand that some people don't particularly care to really get critical or really debate things.  I just figured it was a debate board and I need not sit at the feet of others to learn what they want to try to teach, when I have a challenge/criticism/debate argument to pursue, or a question that I am interested in having addressed.

At what point are things too flexible?  I don't see any of the religious liberals here addressing this.  Instead of dealing with my questions, I hear charges that I don't allow any flexibility.

====

Am I to take it that one may claim that God is NOT soveriegn, NOT holy, NOT just, NOT wise, and yet that this God is ALSO the God depicted in the Tanakh?  Ah, but then I'm called too inflexible when I raise that objection.

If you don't want an intellectual discussion or debate, I don't know what to say any further on this topic.  I really figured it wouldn't be hard to get some agreement on the God Is and the Importance of Moses Prophets thread.  I figured there would be disagreements but that the existence of agreement would help out.

Has anyone but a Christian agreed with me significantly on those threads yet, in the areas where one  would think religious Jews and Christians would be able to agree?

I believe you got the answers you needed to draw any conclusions you'd like. If your opinion is that Jews on this forum don't practice the Judaism of their ancesters, then so be it. That's your opinion of course.

[SquirleyWurley]

I appreciate that people want less controversial challenges to Judaism.  I wanted to bring up controversial subjects and discuss them more reasonably.  But some things are just very controversial and people get bad feelings about some topics, so I figure I gave it a try on a debate forum.  Such topics might be better suited for one on one, small groups in person, with well-selected participants.

It's certainly easier to agree on points where there is both agreement and lack intense dislike and reaction to controversy.  I thought points of agreement might make up for the latter.  I don't know that I was wrong to hope for this, but the reality proved that the discussion became very frustrating for all involved.

[LeahOne]

Nobody expects you to fawn at their feet, SW. Challenge and debate are one thing. Being an obnoxious drunk who shows up at remedial Judaism class and keeps yammering the same nonsense is something else entirely.

Somehow, the 'foot' reference had me thinking of that old Sinatra song - Nancy, not Frank!......

[SquirleyWurley]

It does seem to me that it is expected that I sit and take notes on anything Jewish rather than dispute what I hear persistently.

Certainly I wouldn't pursue these questions the same way (if at all) in other circumstances.

But here, even though it is a debate forum instead of a dinner party or other such gathering, it seems to me some of the expectations are:

1) One isn't to seriously challenge allegations/judgments/reactions against Jews for Jesus, and if they do, not to persist once reprimanded.

2) One ought not expect a serious discussion of the value of Moses and the Prophets, or of reverence towards God, especially if one is a Christian, and especially if one is expressing concern that so many Jews are agnostic/atheist, or if one is significantly critical of Reform Judaism and liberal/radical theology in general.

3) If one believes that the Messiah has come and that Jews do not know the King who was sent to them, and has thoughts which flow from that, one had better just keep it to themselves.

[Chanah]

It does seem to me that it is expected that I sit and take notes on anything Jewish rather than dispute what I hear persistently.

It might help to actually listen to us, unless your objections are based in your vast knowledge of halacha, Jewish life, Jewish tradition, and even - Jewish theology. But since it's painfully obvious you don't know about any of those things, it simply comes down to you complaining that Jews aren't Christians.

Certainly I wouldn't pursue these questions the same way (if at all) in other circumstances.

That's nice to hear.

1) One isn't to seriously challenge allegations/judgments/reactions against Jews for Jesus, and if they do, not to persist once reprimanded.

Not only Jews, but many mainstream Christian churches and societies have objected to the deception and underhanded tactics of J4J. A modicum of research on your part - or God forbid - listening to any of us - would have shown that.

Once again, your objection seems to be that Jews are not Christians.

2) One ought not expect a serious discussion of the value of Moses and the Prophets, or of reverence towards God, especially if one is a Christian, and especially if one is expressing concern that so many Jews are agnostic/atheist, or if one is significantly critical of Reform Judaism and liberal/radical theology in general.

You don't seem to have any idea of what Jews believe. Since you're not a Jew and not considering converting, why does this upset you?

For the record, I don't believe any of the Jews here are Reform, but it's certainly a valid stream of Judaism.

3) If one believes that the Messiah has come and that Jews do not know the King who was sent to them, and has thoughts which flow from that, one had better just keep it to themselves.

Does this mean you're upset that none of us are converting? Do you think we haven't heard all this before, many, many times?

Jews aren't Christians. For whatever reason, that seems to make you crazy, and very nasty to the Jews here. So - you're unpleasant. We know this. And you don't like that we're not Christian. And you think we're all wrong.

You've made that known time and again, Skwerl, we get it already. But we don't agree with you. And once again - not a one of us has ever tried to proselytise you or suggest that you are not or should not be a Christian. Yet you persist in telling us that we shouldn't be Jews.

Oh well.

[SquirleyWurley]

It does seem to me that it is expected that I sit and take notes on anything Jewish rather than dispute what I hear persistently.

It might help to actually listen to us, unless your objections are based in your vast knowledge of halacha, Jewish life, Jewish tradition, and even - Jewish theology. But since it's painfully obvious you don't know about any of those things, it simply comes down to you complaining that Jews aren't Christians.

I do understand some of it, more than some Christians understand it anyhow.  There was a time when I was sympathetic and willing to learn and to use what I learned to counter Christian assumptions, etc.

What has happened is that I have come to be critical about Jewish tradition, the way halachal reasoning has gone on, to the point where I question how much of it is simply wayward embelishment from the last 2000 years in reaction to Christianity, and how much of the remainder was post-exile waywardness criticized by Jesus.

So the problem is if we discuss the subject, I'm not all that impressed with arguments and interpretations that come from Jewish sources written down in the last 2000 years.  I don't take them as necessarily relevant to earlier Judaism.

1) One isn't to seriously challenge allegations/judgments/reactions against Jews for Jesus, and if they do, not to persist once reprimanded.

Not only Jews, but many mainstream Christian churches and societies have objected to the deception and underhanded tactics of J4J. A modicum of research on your part - or God forbid - listening to any of us - would have shown that.

I went farther than what you all posted.  I read the links you provided.  I also went further, on my own initiative, to read what ADL had to say.  It seems to me J4J would be well advised to make it clear they are Jews for Jesus on event posters and in phone books, though it isn't clear to me how often this has been a problem/how bad it's been.

I'm for clear advertisement, myself, I would dislike seeing Unitarians, Christian Scientists, Mormons in the Christian Church section of a phonebook, just as I dislike seeing Crossan the Jesus Seminar and Spong in the Christian sections of book stores -- but I have figured it's a perspective thing... and at any rate Jews for Jesus is more Jewish than any of those that I mentioned are Christian, it seems to me.  When it comes to events that are said to be Christian, I expect that if I disagree it's up to me and others of similar views to educate people that the event isn't really Christian if we feel people are going with mistaken assumptions.  I don't see that non-Christians would particularly care nor do I expect them to sympathise if I were to complain overmuch.

It seems to me some people just hate it that people hand out tracts, knock on doors, speak about their views to try to persuade.  Some hate it quite a bit.  I've generally been tending to take a live and let live approach on that sort of thing.

I see no reason to launch a diatribe against Jews for Jesus, on the basis of what I've seen.  I do object to the Jewish youths in Maryland who threw golf balls at them.

2) One ought not expect a serious discussion of the value of Moses and the Prophets, or of reverence towards God, especially if one is a Christian, and especially if one is expressing concern that so many Jews are agnostic/atheist, or if one is significantly critical of Reform Judaism and liberal/radical theology in general.

You don't seem to have any idea of what Jews believe. Since you're not a Jew and not considering converting, why does this upset you?

It is a debate forum, and I thought Jews and Christians would agree that the writings of Moses and the Prophets are worth reading and respecting, that respect for elders and for great Jews in scripture is a good thing, that God is the awesome soveriegn Creator, despite other disagreements about how exactly to view/interpret scripture....  do we in fact agree to these things at least?  Should I take the silence to mean that we disagree even on this?

[SteveC]

I appreciate that people want less controversial challenges to Judaism.  I wanted to bring up controversial subjects and discuss them more reasonably.  But some things are just very controversial and people get bad feelings about some topics, so I figure I gave it a try on a debate forum.  Such topics might be better suited for one on one, small groups in person, with well-selected participants.

It's certainly easier to agree on points where there is both agreement and lack intense dislike and reaction to controversy.  I thought points of agreement might make up for the latter.  I don't know that I was wrong to hope for this, but the reality proved that the discussion became very frustrating for all involved.

I've seen nothing but Jews honestly debate you on this forum, and they have been rather consistent in their arguments. You come across as an angry "deprogrammer" who has been outsmarted in every move. What is this "controversial subjects " BS you keep waving around here that your "controversial subjects" have been ignored? Every single Jew has engaged you in intelligent and honest discussion on this forum. Go find some orthodox Jews if you can get the type of discussion you expect.

I suspect you volunteer your time towards J4J and you're trying to hone your skills here. I believe you know a lot more about them then you lead us to believe. Right from the start, you feigned an innocent ignorance of who they are and what they do, which quite frankly I found hard to believe. I thought it was fishy when you sent everybody on web searches to document evidence, and when they supplied the evidence, you incredulously and childishly blew it off with an attitude that amounted to - how bad could it be?

You suck as a deprogrammer, you're angry at being outsmarted, you're angry because some of your fellow Christians haven't backed you up, and your most angry that Jews know as much, if not more, about Christianity than you do.

[Chanah]

I've seen nothing but Jews honestly debate you on this forum, and they have been rather consistent in their arguments. You come across as an angry "deprogrammer" who has been outsmarted in every move. What is this "controversial subjects " BS you keep waving around here that your "controversial subjects" have been ignored? Every single Jew has engaged you in intelligent and honest discussion on this forum. Go find some orthodox Jews if you can get the type of discussion you expect.

I suspect you volunteer your time towards J4J and you're trying to hone your skills here. I believe you know a lot more about them then you lead us to believe. Right from the start, you feigned an innocent ignorance of who they are and what they do, which quite frankly I found hard to believe. I thought it was fishy when you sent everybody on web searches to document evidence, and when they supplied the evidence, you incredulously and childishly blew it off with an attitude that amounted to - how bad could it be?

You suck as a deprogrammer, you're angry at being outsmarted, you're angry because some of your fellow Christians haven't backed you up, and your most angry that Jews know as much, if not more, about Christianity than you do.

WORD!

[SteveC]

I went farther than what you all posted.  I read the links you provided.  I also went further, on my own initiative, to read what ADL had to say.  It seems to me J4J would be well advised to make it clear they are Jews for Jesus on event posters and in phone books, though it isn't clear to me how often this has been a problem/how bad it's been.

I'm for clear advertisement, myself, I would dislike seeing Unitarians, Christian Scientists, Mormons in the Christian Church section of a phonebook, just as I dislike seeing Crossan the Jesus Seminar and Spong in the Christian sections of book stores -- but I have figured it's a perspective thing... and at any rate Jews for Jesus is more Jewish than any of those that I mentioned are Christian, it seems to me.  When it comes to events that are said to be Christian, I expect that if I disagree it's up to me and others of similar views to educate people that the event isn't really Christian if we feel people are going with mistaken assumptions.  I don't see that non-Christians would particularly care nor do I expect them to sympathise if I were to complain overmuch.

It seems to me some people just hate it that people hand out tracts, knock on doors, speak about their views to try to persuade.  Some hate it quite a bit.  I've generally been tending to take a live and let live approach on that sort of thing.

I see no reason to launch a diatribe against Jews for Jesus, on the basis of what I've seen.  I do object to the Jewish youths in Maryland who threw golf balls at them.

Unbelievable, I did not read this post before posting my accusations.

Clear the following statement up for me:

"and at any rate Jews for Jesus is more Jewish than any of those that I mentioned are Christian, it seems to me."

How are you such an expert on J4J all of a sudden?

[SteveC]

What word?

[Chanah]

What word?

All of it. You've got the Skwerl figured. Beautifully.

Thanks for that. And he doesn't talk to the orthodox - at least not knowingly. He says they're post-modern nihilists.

Or possibly, they're just too tough of a gig.

I, too, am very interested in his sudden expertise on J4J...

• Children's Prayer.... unc... by SteveC [July 30, 2010, 11:08:14 PM]
• Riot against Messianic Je... by SteveC [July 30, 2010, 09:43:30 PM]
• Court Upholds Expulsion o... by SteveC [July 30, 2010, 09:25:51 PM]
• The Kids Are All Right. by SteveC [July 30, 2010, 09:08:19 PM]
• Honduras... here we come!... by SquirleyWurley [July 30, 2010, 06:23:50 PM]
• A thought by Betsy by kwd111 [July 29, 2010, 03:56:49 PM]
• 77'7" Kerrville Cross Rai... by SteveC [July 28, 2010, 01:54:13 PM]
• That Darling of Creationi... by SteveC [July 27, 2010, 05:51:56 PM]
• Segmentation & Evolution by SteveC [July 27, 2010, 10:56:42 AM]
• I must have overslept on ... by SteveC [July 26, 2010, 11:12:09 PM]
• 'Little Brown Balls' Tie ... by charliejohn [July 25, 2010, 07:34:39 PM]
• Whales Descended From Tin... by SteveC [July 25, 2010, 07:23:50 PM]
• South Pacific Plant May B... by SteveC [July 25, 2010, 07:05:31 PM]
• Transitional Species Exis... by SteveC [July 25, 2010, 05:09:41 PM]
• Fundamentalist's Peppered... by SteveC [July 25, 2010, 02:32:03 PM]
• Haeckel and his Embryos by SteveC [July 25, 2010, 10:36:39 AM]
• Flagellum,"poster child" ... by SteveC [July 24, 2010, 11:10:12 PM]
• Evo's Fundamentalist Posi... by Ed.W [July 22, 2010, 10:44:19 AM]

Members

• Total Members: 558
• Latest: Messedumbessy

Stats

• Total Posts: 86510
• Total Topics: 2615
• Online Today: 21
• Online Ever: 135
• (July 09, 2010, 02:08:16 PM)

Users Online

Users: 1
Guests: 20
Total: 21

SteveC