Did Any OT Prophesies Actually Come True?

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[poi]

Some Christians seem to feel prophesies provide support for their idea of Christianity but I have yet to hear of a Biblical prediction cited by Christians that wasn't shown to be a misinterpretation of the original (Jewish) meaning.In other words, it looks like NT writers sought legitimacy be twisting OT passages to fit their beliefs.Can Christians cite any OT predictions  that are exceptions to this?These would be predictions where Jews also agree on the meaning of the passage.Perhaps the founding of Israel mght be one?

[kwd111]

I suppose we could start at the beginning.

Targum Jonathan - 15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between the seed of thy son, and the seed of her sons; and it shall be when the sons of the woman keep the commandments of the law, they will be prepared to smite thee upon thy head; but when they forsake the commandments of the law, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel. Nevertheless for them there shall be a medicine, but for thee there will be no medicine; and they shall make a remedy for the heel in the days of the King Meshiha.

(Rashi Commentary)
Verse 15: I will put hostility.206

    [G-d said:] Your sole intention was that Adam should die by eating first and then you would marry Chavah and you only spoke to Chavah first because women are easily influenced and know how to influence their husbands. Therefore: "I will set enmity [etc.]"207

    Strike you.

    [Meaning:] He will crush you as [in the verse:] {Hebrew Ref} 208 which is translated [by Onkelos:] You will crush him.

    And you shall strike him on the heel.209

    [Meaning;] You will be unable to stand upright and will [be forced to] bite him on his heel. But, even from there you will [be able to] kill him. The word {Hebrew Ref} is as [in the verse:] "He blew into them"210 because when the snake comes to bite he emits a whistlelike sound.211 since the words sound alike the form {Hebrew Ref} is used for both.

As you can see from Rashi commentary - the serpent (which we understand to be Satan) - will kill the Meshiha, however, the same Meshiha will crush his head (symbol of authority).

[wmdkitty]

That's an impressive leap of logic, there.

I'm just not seeing it, though. The story of the "fall of man" was a way to explain why people die, why we're all mortal, why life is bloody difficult, not a literal event. It's a myth.`

[kwd111]

That's an impressive leap of logic, there.

I'm just not seeing it, though. The story of the "fall of man" was a way to explain why people die, why we're all mortal, why life is bloody difficult, not a literal event. It's a myth.`

Why a leap of faith?  Where does it not fit within the Christian understand of the death, burial and resurrection?

It very specifically talks about the Messiah.  Very specifically it says that the Serpent will kill him... and very specifically says that the Messiah will crush the Serpent.

It talks about how a law will empower man to overcome the curse - but likewise if they don't follow the law - the serpent will wound their heels... but the answer for this problem will be the medicine that the Messiah will bring.

[wmdkitty]

Still not seeing it.

It's a pretty story, but that's all it is.

[LeahOne]

Where is SW to argue that the Targums are not as authoritative as the plain text?

OH, and CHRISTIANS understand the snake to be 'SATAN':  Jews do not, fo we do not believe there is an active spiritual/supernatural entity working against GOD.

The 'medicine' and the 'remedy shall be found in the days of King Messiah' is a usual way of saying 'this will not change while the world goes along its normal course'.....

IOW, Nope, not even close.  If one's going to ID the Christian Jesus as the Jewish 'King Messiah' - then one's got to judge  'Messiahship' by the JEWISH parameters. In which case, Jesus does not qualify.

[kwd111]

Where is SW to argue that the Targums are not as authoritative as the plain text?

OH, and CHRISTIANS understand the snake to be 'SATAN':  Jews do not, fo we do not believe there is an active spiritual/supernatural entity working against GOD.

The 'medicine' and the 'remedy shall be found in the days of King Messiah' is a usual way of saying 'this will not change while the world goes along its normal course'.....

IOW, Nope, not even close.  If one's going to ID the Christian Jesus as the Jewish 'King Messiah' - then one's got to judge  'Messiahship' by the JEWISH parameters. In which case, Jesus does not qualify.

Certainly I would not object to you having your own perception of the scripture... the point is that our understanding fits what is written without having to twist what is there.

And certainly this will not change as the world goes along its normal course.  Jesus Christ, of course, changed the 'normal course' by his medicine.

[LeahOne]

Poi:  I think I've mentioned this before, but it's necessary to repeat.  My apologies to anyone I'm boring....

Jewish understanding of 'prophesy' is NOT the same as what Christians mean by the word.  In Judaism, the 'prophet' is one who speaks Tuth to Power:  he TELLS FORTH the word of YHVH.  It is NOT!!!!! in any sense a 'future -telling':  indeed, to claim such is in the Torah is in Jewish terms to commit idolatry.

There IS no talk of 'types' or 'shadows' or anything like that ever used in Jewish exegesis.  AND if it's not in the section called 'Prophets' (Nevi'im') in the HB - which Daniel is not!- then it's not a prophet.  

NB:  Contrary to the claims of some Christians or Muslims, neither Jesus nor Mohammed are mentioned in the Torah for very obvious reasons.

[CCC460]

IOW, Nope, not even close.  If one's going to ID the Christian Jesus as the Jewish 'King Messiah' - then one's got to judge  'Messiahship' by the JEWISH parameters. In which case, Jesus does not qualify.

Well, spoken; as one who is Jewish.
Jesus is Messiah, Son of God, and Lord becuase of his Resurrection and glorification and the enduring experience of the real presence of the risen Jesus. Seen through that paradigm, Jesus IS the Messiah and Jesus does qualify under those parameters.
As a priest once gave an Easter homily, it was very short. He said, Jesus Christ, died, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven and is seated in glory. Either you believe it, or you don't.

[LeahOne]

"As you can see from Rashi commentary - the serpent (which we understand to be Satan) - will kill the Meshiha, however, the same Meshiha will crush his head (symbol of authority)."

YES, I can see that - ONLY if 'Messiah' is the 'sons of the woman' who keep the commandments of the law, they will be prepared to smite thee upon thy head; but when they forsake the commandments of the law, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel'   If we read Rashi carefully, we can se he's talking about how living the Torah prescription for a GODly life will give us strength to stamp out our own sinful inclination.  This fts in well with one prevailing understanding of 'Messiah' as the collective (Torah-living) Jewish people, identified with Isaiah's 'suffering servant' already.

[LeahOne]

KWD and CCC, I'm not here to debate the validity of your paradigm - because mine states that such argument is unnnecessary for your spiritual benefit and salvation. 

I am glad to be able to discuss our different paradigms side by side, in hopes that our discussion wil enrich one another's experiences.

If my words don't always convey that basic concept clearly, I hope you will continue to trust in my positive intent here.

[kwd111]

"As you can see from Rashi commentary - the serpent (which we understand to be Satan) - will kill the Meshiha, however, the same Meshiha will crush his head (symbol of authority)."

YES, I can see that - ONLY if 'Messiah' is the 'sons of the woman' who keep the commandments of the law, they will be prepared to smite thee upon thy head; but when they forsake the commandments of the law, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel'   If we read Rashi carefully, we can se he's talking about how living the Torah prescription for a GODly life will give us strength to stamp out our own sinful inclination.  This fts in well with one prevailing understanding of 'Messiah' as the collective (Torah-living) Jewish people, identified with Isaiah's 'suffering servant' already.

Yes... and it is good that you tied it into Isaiah.  

Please note that the Messiah is not plural and Rashi said "HE" shall crush your head.  To say that the 'Messiah' is a collective (Torah-living) can be one way of interpreting it... however since it also says "he' - it is not a stretch or a twist to think that he is talking about a Messiah - even as so many Jewish people believe that there is a Messiah (outside of it meaning just Torah-living)


In that the Messiah was born of a woman and followed the commandments - it certainly continues to fit without twisting or stretching any of these words.

[kwd111]

KWD and CCC, I'm not here to debate the validity of your paradigm - because mine states that such argument is unnnecessary for your spiritual benefit and salvation. 

I am glad to be able to discuss our different paradigms side by side, in hopes that our discussion wil enrich one another's experiences.

If my words don't always convey that basic concept clearly, I hope you will continue to trust in my positive intent here.

No problem Leah.

My intent here is to answer Poi (and anybody else ) - and to show that our understanding isn't stretching what is written and therefore carries the weight of possibility even as any other interpretation that doesn't stretch its meaning.

[Palmtree]

Well, spoken; as one who is Jewish.

TOC... Anyway, CCC, your revelation may explain why your comments appear to be so internally conflicted at times.

As a priest once gave an Easter homily, it was very short. He said, Jesus Christ, died, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven and is seated in glory. Either you believe it, or you don't.

I'm really curious now CCC, from the Jewish/Chrisitan perpsective, is there really no further depth to your explanation for why some believe that the prophesies have come true, while others don't?? Seriously, your agreement with such a statement reads rather tepid, with a tinge of condescending overtones.    

[Heterodoxus]

...If by "NT writers" you're referring to the Apostles, it's more likely they never understood who and what Jesus was not.

It's "more likely"?? Now that is a weasel phrase if I ever heard one, especially when it is not backed up with any real evidence - or do we have to once again just accept it based on your v-a-s-t educational background?

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