Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

fenn

Hero Member

Offline

Posts: 826

Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

« Reply #210 on: December 21, 2009, 06:20:21 PM »

IMHO, there's something divine about ANY inspiration, hence the concept of Muses. Poetry, music, art, scriptures... Doesn't make any of it the Infallible Word-O-God(TM), though.


	Logged

SquirleyWurley

Hero Member

Offline

Posts: 3554

...

Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

« Reply #211 on: December 21, 2009, 07:17:51 PM »

Quote from: Metis on December 21, 2009, 06:13:02 PM

Quote from: SquirleyWurley on December 21, 2009, 05:54:47 PM

Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant.

How are you defining "the Word of God"? If it's the Bible, how did it get selected?

I was just highlighting some passages in CCC's link.

Quote

If those that chose the Bible weren't divinely inspired, then how do you know it's "the Word of God"? If they were divinely inspired, why would God only inspire them with that and not other decisions?

One could see canonization as the overwhelming agreement of the Christian community verifying the foundational documents as authentic.

I put a bit of stock in the Ecumenical Councils of the undivided Church, myself. It means something to me when the assembled Bishops of the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic churches got together to handle a controversy, and when for over a thousand years there was such agreement on such fundamentals. There are theological insights and traditions among Protestants/revangelicals/pentecostals, etc., which do not contradict such consensus, but rather augment the tradition or clarify certain obscure issues.

We cannot escape tradition, nor should we try to. We can, however, keep an eye open to beware the dangers of deadly formalism or smugness, and we can seek to avoid contradiction of ancient scriptures, we can turn our eye repeatedly back to the ancient sources of our faith, lest we veer off track.


	Logged

CCC460

Global Moderator
Hero Member

Offline

Posts: 2158

Divine mercy

Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

« Reply #212 on: December 22, 2009, 08:31:57 AM »

Quote from: SquirleyWurley on December 21, 2009, 07:17:51 PM

One could see canonization as the overwhelming agreement of the Christian community verifying the foundational documents as authentic.

Well, that is pretty much what Apostolic Christianity believes and history affirms. I get the impression that some bible Christians think that Jesus handed the Apostles a tome before ascending. It was titled, "Authorized Version".

Quote

I put a bit of stock in the Ecumenical Councils of the undivided Church, myself.

That's good but remember that the Church was divided since the council of Ephesus in 431 AD when the Assyrians fell into heresy and left the communion of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Thankfully, Catholicism has done much to help restore unity to this branch of Apostolic Christianity now known as the Assyrian Church of the East.

We should base our faith in the teaching of the Apostles. That has ALWAYS been the litmus test of orthodoxy throughout Christendom. The Church is always One and undivided where the true faith is proclaimed. This has always been recognized since at least Nicea and Constantinople.


	Logged

The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature"

Palmtree

Hero Member

Offline

Posts: 1237

Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

« Reply #213 on: December 22, 2009, 09:25:30 AM »

Quote from: CCC460 on December 22, 2009, 08:31:57 AM

Why use a tome and some poverty stricken fisherman, when you can inspire the King of England to use all of his available resources in the golden age of Elizabethan literature? A brainer that be not....


	Logged

Metis

Hero Member

Offline

Posts: 1676

Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

« Reply #214 on: December 22, 2009, 02:34:42 PM »

Quote from: SquirleyWurley on December 21, 2009, 07:17:51 PM

One could see canonization as the overwhelming agreement of the Christian community verifying the foundational documents as authentic.

But there wasn't an "overwhelming agreement" until much later in time, and with the Apocrypha there's still not agreement. According to William Barclay, for example, he said that about 1/3 of the churches didn't use the book of Revelations as late as the 4th century because of a series of problems with it, such as authorship (even though it says "John on Patmos) and the "millennium" (they said no such doctrine was passed down orally apparently, nor does it show up in any other accounts, so the church accepted it but also stated that the "millennium" should not be taken literally). Hebrews had an unknown author, and some of the writings attributed to Paul may not have been written by Paul at all.

My point is that there was a battle for what should be included in the canon, and it became so acute that Constantine in the 4th century had to appoint someone to make a final determination, and even then there was still disputes over the Apocrypha that exists until even today.

But then please note that it was the church that chose the canon and not the other way around, and there were and are disputes over which books should be included.


	Logged

"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."-- Einstein

CCC460

Global Moderator
Hero Member

Offline

Posts: 2158

Divine mercy

Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

« Reply #215 on: December 22, 2009, 02:49:40 PM »

and, as one can see, there is still some variation in canon of the Hebrew Scriptures among the ancient Churches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible
This list is correct, as far as I know.

Also, note that the Ethiopian Orthodox have a difference in their Hebrew Canon. What I do not see listed is that the Eastern Orthodox generally have 151 psalms as well.

for those who simplistically ignore the historical development of the canon, but instead believe that God handed the authoritative table of contents to Christians, it is amazing that they cannot see this inconsistency. The books in their bible are there because men decided which ones to put there. men chose the canon and they are still inspired texts. It's not an either or as simplistic fundamentalism holds to.


	Logged

The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature"

SquirleyWurley

Hero Member

Offline

Posts: 3554

...

Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

« Reply #216 on: December 23, 2009, 01:47:56 PM »

Quote from: Metis on December 22, 2009, 02:34:42 PM

Quote from: SquirleyWurley on December 21, 2009, 07:17:51 PM

One could see canonization as the overwhelming agreement of the Christian community verifying the foundational documents as authentic.

Alright. You did well to remind me of these things, lest I over-generalise.

I don't particularly trust consensus or historical processes -- even when it comes to all Christians. But it still is a very important thing to pause and reflect upon, as a Christian. It means a lot when there is the sort of agreement as is represented by the canon of scripture and the major councils.

I guess ultimately it's something more elusive... I hear the voice of Christ in the Gospels, and see what Christianity has preserved of what was passed on from the earliest Christians, and what they have developed over time, and I listen to hear the voice of Christ and ought to follow it as best as I can.

The scripture, despite controversies, despite disagreements about the book of Revelations or whether to include the Apocrypha, is still the most important resource for me to go back to, that I may check the various things floating around in Christian culture/tradition/history, for the authentic voice of Christ, the teaching Jesus had the Apostles teach, etc.