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    Author Topic: Heaven and Hell  (Read 2633 times)
    Acumen
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    « Reply #330 on: December 12, 2009, 01:30:09 AM »

    Yawwwn. That's an NRLC link. Their stuff is constantly getting debunked. Your John McCain buddy even lost ratings points for citing one of their debunked stories prior to the elections. There's nothing reputable to back you up. Leah's right, whether you choose to admit it or not. Y'know, nobody even TRIED to answer my question about why the pro-lifers choose to LIE so much. I thought Jesus didn't like lies. Tongue


    If they are getting debunked, then perhaps you can provide some evidence that this particular link is not credible.  If you cannot, then our particular debate is over since I provided counter-evidence that partial birth abortions are mainly done for elective reasons.
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    Acumen
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    « Reply #331 on: December 12, 2009, 01:55:56 AM »

    Why all the commotion over dilation and intact extraction anyway?  Regardless of the means, the exact procedure - if you believe a life is being taken, it's taken.  There really is no difference.  There really was no need to single out this one procedure to be criminalized - and pose greater risk to the few dozen women facing a terrible situation.

    IMHO, it was political grandstanding of the most cynical kind.

    It's quite simple actually.  Pro-choicers utilize the same technique by introducing rape and incest into the equation in order to show that abortion should be justified.  By mentioning the more extreme example, it gets people to examine just how far they are willing to push their own belief systems.  Unfortunately, this only works on those who have unstable beliefs about abortion.  Like you said, if the life is taken, it's taken.  Well, if it's a legitimate human life, then rape or incest won't justify the abortion because one evil act doesn't justify another.

    Another way to look at it is that many people have no clue what a partial birth abortion is.  In the past month, I mentioned the procedure to about a handful of people.  Now granted, these people are what I would call political active by any stretch, rather they are regular working folks.  And each one of them were stunned by how gruesome the procedure was.  Therefore, by focusing on partial birth abortion, they can obtain a glimpse of how barbaric abortion can be.

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    Acumen
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    « Reply #332 on: December 12, 2009, 02:13:04 AM »

    They care about fetuses, Leah. Not kids.

    And this reminds me of the majority Republicans who voted against extending medical benefits to children from low income families earlier this year because they didn't want to feed "big government".  So, from this I guess we can gather that their ideological position is far more important than the well-being of our children.  How "patriotic" of them. Roll Eyes 

    Sounds like more partisan tricks of pitting conservatives certain classes of people.  Republicans want the poor to live in poverty, want the elderly to go without medications, and want children to suffer.

    But what Metis doesn't tell us is that Democrats inserted cuts to physician owned hospitals and tax increases to pay for their proposal, which would hurt working families. 

    Like what my home Representative Paul Ryan said, the legislation goes far beyond extending SCHIP and expands eligibility to include households or families making more than $80,000 a year, relaxes standards for citizenship verification, and moves millions of children from private insurance onto government-run health care.

    Instead of using children to justify another entitlement program when our current ones are going broke, democrats should be making reforms that lower the costs of premiums so parents can insure their children at a satisfactory cost.  They should find ways to let insurance companies compete with each other across state lines, which would drop premiums as buyers would search the market for the lowest costs.

    And this is just one way to lower costs.  Another way is to give refundable tax credits so people can shop for health insurance and won't have to buy insurance from their employers.  By doing this, people can find and pay for insurance plans that meet their individual needs rather than belonging to a large pool of employees that buy into a single generalized plan. 



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    fenn
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    « Reply #333 on: December 12, 2009, 11:29:26 AM »

    I'll debunk it easily enough later, I'm on the mobile ATM. As many as you can put up here can be debunked because the pro lifers are all propaganda and no substance. And I find flaws with the Dems too, just not the ones you find. I'd like to see REAL Democrats, strong Democrats who refuse to pander to the right.
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    SquirleyWurley
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    « Reply #334 on: December 12, 2009, 02:13:42 PM »

    I've only been here a very short time, but do the right wingers read what some of us have written about late term abortions only being performed when neccessary to save the life of the woman and/or when the fetus is so deformed it won't live outside the womb.  What if the fetus dies in the womb, under their anti abortion rules dead babies won't be able to be aborted?  That could be dangerous and doesn't make sense.  

    I'm not a winger.  I tend to want to see conservative democrats or something, and instead I get the garbage the parties put forward, and I hold my nose and  vote.

    But I'll answer your question anyhow, because I'd like to see restrictions on abortion.  I am concerned that poorly written legislation/regulation, and poorly implemented executive action upon such matters, would muck things up.  Of course the safe medical removal of a dead baby from a womb shouldn't be a crime.

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    Personally, I don't believe a discussion about abortion even belongs on a fundamentalist forum like this that calls itself Jewish Debate. This subject was started by a fundamentalist on a Jewish debate. They can discuss this all they want at Christian forums, so I have to wonder why it was brought up on a Jewish forum.

    I'm sorry the discussion is here, too.  I apologise for mucking up the orderliness of the forums, but we're a bit loose here as it is.  This is a debate forum at least.  We have Howie on Christian fellowship, and even Steve.

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    Of course, the fact is, it's really a medical discussion, and it ends up being no different than discussing evolution vs. creationists with fundamentalists.  Their opinion is all tied up with their religion, heaven and hell, satan and God, their bible interpretations, not science, not facts.

    Sometimes yes.  Among non-Christians, I prefer to support my unpopular views on the basis of arguments and evidence as I unerstand them, myself.

    Quote
    Therefore, it can't be discussed realistically and/or scientifically, without the input here of medical doctors, it can only be discussed from an emotional point of view.

    On either side when it comes to medical details, yes.  But aside from medical details, there are ethical and political principles which people on either side may discuss.

    Quote
    NO more comments from me on this subject.  Waste of time.  I, like other moderates here,  completely disagree with far right opinions.  In fact, I think some of their arguments are insane.

    Do you agree that it would be an extreme view to want to restrict all abortions, but a moderate view to push for restricting only late-term abortions, and likewise an extreme view to want to allow all abortions, but a moderate view to push for allowing only early abortions?

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    This Jewish "debate" forum is created by far right Christians fundamentalists to give the illusion that Jews have the power to debate any subject in which fundamentalists see it tied into a religious subject.

    I was thinking Howie and Steve were on the Christian fellowship forums because he and the Christians there have been having friendly discussions for years, and things just evolved the way they are without much rigor in implementing rules for what goes on particular forums.  I definitely don't wish to debate on a fellowship forum with people of other faiths, myself, but around here Steve and Howie are welcomed to do so, and they do tone it down a bit on the fellowship boards.  So I expect it's ok for a debate board to be more confrontational.
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