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[wiscidea]

Some atheists, such as this one, view some theists as rather arrogant. Why? Some theists appear convinced, without solid evidence, that they know The Truth and they're quite confident that the rest of us don't have a clue; indeed, they're confident the rest of us are doomed. All this based on faith and information passed through the ages by word of mouth and copied texts.

A theist might counter that the atheist is arrogant. Why? Well... perhaps one will tell us. But I think it is because they view atheists as too self-reliant, too confident that human beings can actually study nature and, through reason and effort, understand how the universe works... then use this knowledge to improve our lives.

It is my opinion that the theist is the arrogant one, far too confident that they know The Truth. The atheist is a skeptic, which a lot of people don't seem to get; we might think we know quite a bit, but it is always subject to revision.

If theists are not arrogant, then no one is arrogant.

Opinions?

[kwd111]

Some atheists, such as this one, view some theists as rather arrogant. Why? Some theists appear convinced, without solid evidence, that they know The Truth and they're quite confident that the rest of us don't have a clue; indeed, they're confident the rest of us are doomed. All this based on faith and information passed through the ages by word of mouth and copied texts.

A theist might counter that the atheist is arrogant. Why? Well... perhaps one will tell us. But I think it is because they view atheists as too self-reliant, too confident that human beings can actually study nature and, through reason and effort, understand how the universe works... then use this knowledge to improve our lives.

It is my opinion that the theist is the arrogant one, far too confident that they know The Truth. The atheist is a skeptic, which a lot of people don't seem to get; we might think we know quite a bit, but it is always subject to revision.

If theists are not arrogant, then no one is arrogant.

Opinions?

ar·ro·gant    (ār'ə-gənt)   
adj. 

   1.Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
   2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others: an arrogant contempt for the weak. See Synonyms at proud.

As a Christian, certainly I could not hold on to the position of arrogance although I am sure there are arrogant theists as there are arrogant atheists.

Perhaps you are confusing arrogance with conviction?

Conviction:

–noun
1.    a fixed or firm belief.
2.    the act of convicting.
3.    the state of being convicted.
4.    the act of convincing.
5.    the state of being convinced

[Mountain_Man]

As a Christian, certainly I could not hold on to the position of arrogance although....

Although you do. 

[Mountain_Man]

Some atheists, such as this one, view some theists as rather arrogant. Why? Some theists appear convinced, without solid evidence, that they know The Truth ...

You got it right. And we had a believer show up and prove your points.

[SquirleyWurley]

What if this were framed in terms of
=========

Arrogant allegations of certain knowledge

vs

Humble expressions of imperfect knowledge

=========
and also in terms of
=========

Faith / confessing trust

vs.

Lack of faith / not trusting

[Mountain_Man]

What if this were framed in terms of
=========
Arrogant allegations of certain knowledge
vs
Humble expressions of imperfect knowledge
=========
and also in terms of
=========
Faith / confessing trust
vs.
Lack of faith / not trusting

Many self proclaimed christians would still qualify as arrogant. Your last "vs." confirms that.

[wiscidea]

What if this were framed in terms of
=========

Arrogant allegations of certain knowledge

vs

Humble expressions of imperfect knowledge

=========

If this were the case, I think it is clear that atheists generally display "humble expressions of imperfect knowledge"; that is, we recognize that the information we have about the world is tentative, subject to revision, limited by our senses and technology, an approximation of Truth. There is no means to guarantee, 100%, that we actually know what's going on. I think this is in sharp contrast to theistic positions, which include enormous degree of confidence regarding paths to God, absolute good and evil, and the precise nature of the universe... which sound much like "arrogant allegations of certain knowledge".

[Gorm_Sionnach]

I think it is a matter of perspective (isn't everything?)

Athiests (and skeptics in general) like to have objective evidence to support their statements of what is a fact and what is not. Fact is falsifiable, it could be wrong given new evidence.

Theists (often but not always) rely on faith, to determine what it true (and again it depends on the context) to support claims. But faith is not falsifiable, it can never be wrong, so to speak. Because it is not somethign which is (directly) observable.

[Flitzerbiest]

What if this were framed in terms of
=========

Arrogant allegations of certain knowledge

vs

Humble expressions of imperfect knowledge

That IS how it is being framed, and some theists tend to fall into the upper category.

[wiscidea]

I'd like to point out that while the OP might seem like an aggressive post, it was not intended to be one.

I'm admitting that I think some, perhaps many, theists are arrogant. And I really wouldn't care, except the same people like to suggest atheists are arrogant. If this accusation is going to be tossed around, then theists ought to hold up a mirror and study it very carefully. Honestly, I'm clinging to my view rather tightly. It will take some persuasion to alter it. But I actually hope a theist can prove me wrong, not just regarding their own views, but theism in generally. Can they demonstrate that they are not arrogant? Or just rule out a few religious traditions, using sacred texts as evidence? And can they agree with the notion that atheists are certainly no more arrogant? That's what it boils down to.

I can imagine us each having our own views, and whole lot of confidence in those views. But it seems bizarre when a theist refers to an atheist as the arrogant one.

Who wants to drop this term from all discussion of theism vs. atheism?

Who wants to persuade everyone that neither is more arrogant than the other?

Edit to add...

And is there a respected neutral person who can accomplish the above task?

[kwd111]

Like I said... you can find arrogance on any side.  There are arrogant Theists as there are arrogant atheists.

I still believe, however, that some people misinterpret conviction with arrogance.

Introspection (looking in the mirror) is a good thing to do at all times.  Pride and arrogance can come up when one thought one had eradicated it.

It can be said that many times the very people who start accusing another of being arrogant end up, over time, being arrogant themselves.  Like the person who was offended that their so called close friend was talking behind their back and went around complaining to the other friends about what had happened, talking behind the back of his/her close friend.

IMO it is usually a double edged sword

[Mountain_Man]

I still believe, however, that some people misinterpret conviction with arrogance.

Yes, I see that from self proclaimed christians all the time.

[CCC460]

Yes, I see that from self proclaimed christians all the time.

And every single one of your posts. 

[SquirleyWurley]

I'll leave aside the question of what's arrogant or humble.  Appearances are one thing, but rhetoric in debate can make interpretation difficult.

My understanding of faith is that it isn't an allegation of certain knowledge.  When I have been arrogant with faith, I think I have been arrogant about my imperfect knowledge, more or less aware that my knowledge is imperfect and limited.  I'm not saying that there aren't people who see faith as certain knowledge and get arrogant and convinced of certainty on a whole slew of proposals.  But for me faith is something about trust, given imperfect knowledge.

====

An atheist might be said to be arrogant in the same way that various gnostics could be said to be arrogant, in assuming to know so much that they can say for certain that either there is no God/gods or that they are so 'enlightened' with their own experiences/visions as to be beyond reproach, beyond criticism, knowing the mysteries and seeing so far beyond the veil as to be super-elites 'in-the-know'

By comparison agnostics say they don't know or can't know about various proposals, and that they have reasons for their doubts, while someone with faith says they themselves don't know a lot and can't prove perfectly all sorts of things but they have some reasons they trust this or that revelation/prophet/scripture/tradition, they have reasons for their hope.

This leads to that other comparison between doubting/trusting.  One person doubts that there is a creator who is personally involved, another trusts that this is so.  One person doubts that Jesus is God or Savior, etc., and another person trusts it is so and trusts the early disciples and aposltes to hand down the truth of the matter.

======

There are other ways to frame it, of course.  That's just some things that come to my mind given my own reading, experience, and speculation.

[Gorm_Sionnach]

I do not think it unreasonable for someone who bases their decisions and world view on evidence, to ask for evidence to support a claim made by someone else. It is obviouisly a different approach than many theists, but it is a fairly reasonable one.

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