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[Flitzerbiest]

YHWH, as portrayed in Judeochristian scriptures, is a bit fixated on sex and procreation.  Having generously invited mankind to be fruitful and multiply in Genesis 1, it seems to all go downhill rather quickly from there.  Consider the following.

1.  God punishes all women for the sin of Eve by increasing labor pains (although "compared to what?" would be a logical question, since there was no birth prior to the Fall).

2.  God demands the foreskin of Abraham and his descendants as a sign of the covenant.

3.  God takes a supernatural role in fertility.  He is frequently engaged in "closing" or "opening" the uterus of heroines of scripture.  Here is a list of women for whom God played a supernatural role in their fertility:  Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, the mother of Samson, Hannah, Michal (negatively; she was made infertile for mocking David), the Shunammite woman who befriended Elisha, Elizabeth (mother of Juan Bautista) and Mary.

4.  God seems to find feminine sexuality rather distasteful.  In the course of comparing Israel to a prostitute, YHWH asserts that taking a lover to bed results in defilement of the woman (though not, presumably, of the man).

[SquirleyWurley]

One may argue that to be fixated on sex would be to insist upon homosexual sex or transvestitism or public displays of affection in a society that does not condone such behavior.

To create human beings and to have ordered creation so that they reproduce and to give commands as to how to live appropriately with one another, is not fixation, how could it be?

One may argue that It is perverted to wish to use one's sexual organs with someone of the same sex because sexual organs have a natural association with reproductive functions and a perversion of such a function is simple enough to figure out.  One may argue it is perverted to wish to pass for someone of the opposite sex because of the manipulation/duplicity, the warping/perverting of social cues of gender being a sort of anti-social act of provocation.

But you seem to find fault with examples of the Creator intervening in situations of barenness and miraculous birth as if this is perverse or unacceptable?

To charge the Creator with repressiveness or perversion is... perverse... by what standard would you judge the Creator?  In the context of this thread I'd say it's mental masturbation... the impotent dream of malcontented sinners who don't wish to be called to repentance...

[Gorm_Sionnach]

Why does any question regarding "sex" wind up invoking homosexuality?

I've read and reread FB's post and can find no mention, inference or hinting at of the topic of homosexuality, yet it is the very first thing you mentioned SW?

Why?

Further, I'm unsure how you came to the conclusion that this topic is trying to argue for perversion? Where did FB say, "YHWH is a Pervert", or is the simple act of discussing sex, perverted in your view? How does saying "fixated on Sex" imply what you claim it implies?

You've failed to connect your reply to the content of FB's post, and seem to have inferred an entire range of questions no one asked.

[SteveC]

Let's not forget poor Onan who got smitten for intentionally missing the mark.

[SquirleyWurley]

The title and the tone of the OP didn't encourage me to take this thread as a serious contribution to human understanding.

[SteveC]

The title and the tone of the OP didn't encourage me to take this thread as a serious contribution to human understanding.

Don't worry about it. We weren't expecting you to add anything to human understanding.

[Flitzerbiest]

Anyone care to address the topic?  Anyone else intrigued by the idea that miraculous births are more or less the norm in the biblical saga?  What is the logic behind sealing a spiritual deal by taking the tip of a man's penis?  YHWH is not typically thought of as a fertility deity--was he originally seen more in this light?

[CCC460]

One of the problems in talking about Christianity and sexuality is that there is a repressed understanding of sexuality as something bad.

I think that this is problematic to the discussion and has its roots, among other things, in the puritanical movement which helped found this country. This isn't the only source, for Rome has done its part to confuse a wholistic view of sexuality and the integration of the person through the ages.

It is only recently that this is beginning to be addressed again.

We can talk about biblical aspects of sexuality, but remember that they are seen mostly through that puritan lense that has formed a lot of our preceptions here in North America.

[CCC460]

4.  God seems to find feminine sexuality rather distasteful.  In the course of comparing Israel to a prostitute, YHWH asserts that taking a lover to bed results in defilement of the woman (though not, presumably, of the man).

Are you  inferring that female sexuality somehow finds its expression, in prostitution?
I think i know you better than that, but that's what it sounds like in my reading of it.
Can you clarify?

[Flitzerbiest]

Sure. 

No--I don't think that prostitution is the ideal of feminine sexuality.  On the other hand, one can't easily escape a reading of the books of Leviticus and Ezekiel, for example, without coming away with the impression that there is something inherently dirty about women having sex.  Not surprising for a document written by men in a culture that, by modern standards, would be misogynist, but for this discussion I would prefer to leave the discussion about textual origins on the sideline and simply take the biblical saga at face value.

FB

[John T Mainer]

One may argue that to be fixated on sex would be to insist upon homosexual sex or transvestitism or public displays of affection in a society that does not condone such behavior.

To create human beings and to have ordered creation so that they reproduce and to give commands as to how to live appropriately with one another, is not fixation, how could it be?

One may argue that It is perverted to wish to use one's sexual organs with someone of the same sex because sexual organs have a natural association with reproductive functions and a perversion of such a function is simple enough to figure out.  One may argue it is perverted to wish to pass for someone of the opposite sex because of the manipulation/duplicity, the warping/perverting of social cues of gender being a sort of anti-social act of provocation.

But you seem to find fault with examples of the Creator intervening in situations of barenness and miraculous birth as if this is perverse or unacceptable?

To charge the Creator with repressiveness or perversion is... perverse... by what standard would you judge the Creator?  In the context of this thread I'd say it's mental masturbation... the impotent dream of malcontented sinners who don't wish to be called to repentance...

Well, one could say that a god that caused women to menstruate and then branded them unclean and banished from their own house until they performed a blood sacrifice is being a misogynist hypocrite.  One who created man and woman to be fertile from the act of sexual union and commanded them to be fruitful and multiply, while demanding the woman bear children in pain as punishment for Eve's sin (punishment born by heirs in perpetuity), to be misogynist and unjust.

The god that tells how a raped captive woman is unlcean (the rapist is fine), and to be made clean and good for further raping by the shaving of the head clearly is not the god of love. The god of sick woman hating rapists, possibly, but not the god of love.

On the subject of impotence, I notice that when it came time to sire his heir on earth, Yaweh, that empty impotent god, was unable to function in a life giving capacity, having to get the holy spirit to roger poor Mary for him. Perhaps his inability to function as a male is the source of his rage at those who can know love in any form.

[CCC460]

Sure. 

No--I don't think that prostitution is the ideal of feminine sexuality.  On the other hand, one can't easily escape a reading of the books of Leviticus and Ezekiel, for example, without coming away with the impression that there is something inherently dirty about women having sex.  Not surprising for a document written by men in a culture that, by modern standards, would be misogynist, but for this discussion I would prefer to leave the discussion about textual origins on the sideline and simply take the biblical saga at face value.

FB

I would be interested to see what our jewish friends had to say about this.
Regarding Christianity, the most recent reflections on sexuality and humanity, in Catholicism, is coming about in Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body, in which he reflects upon the meaning of human sexuality in terms of mankind's original state in the Garden of Eden, and how man and woman are gift to each other, and how human sexuality has been designed by God to be an icon (sign) of God's unity and procreativity.

Pope Benedict does pick up on this in his first encyclical, God is Love. Benedict's writing is not very easy, for he is trained as a theologian. Unfortunately, some of this is written too high of a level. I even struggle with the level that he writes at, and I'm more well read than most of the laity.

[Howiedds]

Fb:

On the other hand, one can't easily escape a reading of the books of Leviticus and Ezekiel, for example, without coming away with the impression that there is something inherently dirty about women having sex.

CCC:

I would be interested to see what our jewish friends had to say about this.

Where in Leviticus and Ezekiel?

[Flitzerbiest]

Howie,

We've already discussed the levitical purity laws.  As JTM said, the God who caused women to menstruate shouldn't get freaked out when they do.

As for Ezekiel, passages like this:

As soon as she saw them, she lusted after them and sent messengers to them in Chaldea.  Then the Babylonians came to her, to the bed of love, and in their lust they defiled her. After she had been defiled by them, she turned away from them in disgust.  When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her nakedness, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister.  Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt.  There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.  So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breasts fondled.

...give the impression that feminine sexuality and nudity is disgusting.  God is not comparing Israel to a lewd woman because it's complementary.  A possible defense is that the lewdness, not the femininity, is the problem, but generally speaking, the number of men and women having sex is roughly equal, and nowhere will you find a nation compared to a lustful man.

[Flitzerbiest]

Well, one could say that a god that caused women to menstruate and then branded them unclean and banished from their own house until they performed a blood sacrifice is being a misogynist hypocrite.  One who created man and woman to be fertile from the act of sexual union and commanded them to be fruitful and multiply, while demanding the woman bear children in pain as punishment for Eve's sin (punishment born by heirs in perpetuity), to be misogynist and unjust.

These are the sorts of things that become obvious when you start reading the Bible as a book which can be understood using the common tools of perception rather than a perfect revelation which, despite it's perfection, can't manage to get its meaning across without help from spiritual authority, divine guidance, doctrinal context and reliance on historically fixed interpretations.

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