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[Kartari]

And it did.

[Gorm_Sionnach]

I disagree, more for social/ cultural reasons than religious ones, but.

The Samurai were a specific caste, with a specific martial function (depending on the period, but if we're talking about Samurai walking around with swords, its pre-Meiji era) so the function was still in effect. Further, a Samurai would not have been a mercenary, as the particular title of Samurai was based on fealty to a specific lord, were the lord dead with no heirs, or due to the inaction of said samurai, only then would that Samurai then be a ruroni/ ronin in the position of actually being a mercenary. Its nit picky but the concepts need to be addressed in their proper context.

Also unaddressed is the issue of honour, which was impugned by the insolence of the monk. For someone looking into this window, and not properly understanding what constituted honour, and what was required to defend ones honour, the Samurai comes off as a thug. If you understand the social/cultural context, the Samurai was in the right in his action.

Arguably, the Monk could have been goading the Samurai on in an effort to illustrate his point, knowing how the Samurai would react. However, within the context of a caste system, the actions of the samurai ought to be understood to be correct, as it was expected of him.

[Kartari]

I agree with Gorm on the samurai's code.  However, it is not unusual to encounter strange and humorous events in Buddhist stories that defy cultural traditions.  I've seen stories involving monks carrying women (when they're not supposed to even touch them), one story where a Zen master pushed a novice monk out of a window in a two story temple, then jumped out after him, and so on.

But in any case, the story's meaning is not off.

[fenn]

The Samurai had a strict codes of conduct, not an uncommon thing for an elite warrior society. I've heard other stories of them sheathing their swords because they couldn't kill in anger. So while it may not have happened, it IS possible. And the point it makes is very true, great story, thanks for that.

[fenn]

And Palmtree, ANGER is hell here, not death. This is a Zen story. No Biblical constructs.

[John T Mainer]

To many samurai, like many knights or other warrior classes in caste ruled societies of the pre-industrial age it would have been quite reasonable to cut down the monk for showing disrespect to one of a higher caste.

Rarely would this be done in anger. In the martial disciplines of both east and west, the master swordsman merely performs the appropriate techniques flawlessly, not in anger, but in the quiet satisfaction of doing a difficult thing well.  That a man dies is but a part of performing the sacred tasks of his caste in the defense of social order and thus of his people.

To non caste peoples like the Romans, Greeks, or Norse, this would be a crime.  In India, most of Asia, the middle east, or pre-industrial Christian Europe this would be expected behavior.

[wiscidea]

... it is not unusual to encounter strange and humorous events in Buddhist stories that defy cultural traditions.  I've seen stories involving monks carrying women (when they're not supposed to even touch them), one story where a Zen master pushed a novice monk out of a window in a two story temple, then jumped out after him, and so on.

There's one story I particularly appreciate about a monk carrying a woman... it goes something like this...

Two monks walking through a forest encounter a princess standing by a stream. She's in tears because she has to cross the stream, but doesn't want to get her dress wet. The elder monk offers to carry her across on his back. And so it goes. She climbs onto his back and the three cross the stream. He sets her on the ground on the other side and she heads off in one direction, the monks continue in another direction. But the younger monk is very irritated. After a while, he suddenly stops, turns, and chastises the elder monk... "How could you do such a thing?! We're monks and we've vowed to never touch women! It is appalling." The elder monk responds, "Oh my... you're still carrying her? I set her down hours ago."

I read this story shortly after a serious bout of anger—details not important—I simply could not let go of. I read the story...  and the anger suddenly drained away. I think Buddhist stories are very effective at jarring the mind when we're mired in negative emotions.

(Were I a theist, I'd say God placed the book in front of me exactly when I needed it, but that would be a topic for a different thread.)

[Metis]

... it is not unusual to encounter strange and humorous events in Buddhist stories that defy cultural traditions.  I've seen stories involving monks carrying women (when they're not supposed to even touch them), one story where a Zen master pushed a novice monk out of a window in a two story temple, then jumped out after him, and so on.

There's one story I particularly appreciate about a monk carrying a woman... it goes something like this...

Two monks walking through a forest encounter a princess standing by a stream. She's in tears because she has to cross the stream, but doesn't want to get her dress wet. The elder monk offers to carry her across on his back. And so it goes. She climbs onto his back and the three cross the stream. He sets her on the ground on the other side and she heads off in one direction, the monks continue in another direction. But the younger monk is very irritated. After a while, he suddenly stops, turns, and chastises the elder monk... "How could you do such a thing?! We're monks and we've vowed to never touch women! It is appalling." The elder monk responds, "Oh my... you're still carrying her? I set her down hours ago."

I read this story shortly after a serious bout of anger—details not important—I simply could not let go of. I read the story...  and the anger suddenly drained away. I think Buddhist stories are very effective at jarring the mind when we're mired in negative emotions.

(Were I a theist, I'd say God placed the book in front of me exactly when I needed it, but that would be a topic for a different thread.)

Good story, and thanks for posting it.

Namaste.

[Kartari]

... it is not unusual to encounter strange and humorous events in Buddhist stories that defy cultural traditions.  I've seen stories involving monks carrying women (when they're not supposed to even touch them), one story where a Zen master pushed a novice monk out of a window in a two story temple, then jumped out after him, and so on.

There's one story I particularly appreciate about a monk carrying a woman... it goes something like this...

Two monks walking through a forest encounter a princess standing by a stream. She's in tears because she has to cross the stream, but doesn't want to get her dress wet. The elder monk offers to carry her across on his back. And so it goes. She climbs onto his back and the three cross the stream. He sets her on the ground on the other side and she heads off in one direction, the monks continue in another direction. But the younger monk is very irritated. After a while, he suddenly stops, turns, and chastises the elder monk... "How could you do such a thing?! We're monks and we've vowed to never touch women! It is appalling." The elder monk responds, "Oh my... you're still carrying her? I set her down hours ago."

I read this story shortly after a serious bout of anger—details not important—I simply could not let go of. I read the story...  and the anger suddenly drained away. I think Buddhist stories are very effective at jarring the mind when we're mired in negative emotions.

(Were I a theist, I'd say God placed the book in front of me exactly when I needed it, but that would be a topic for a different thread.)

That sounds like a very close version of the same story I had in mind.  The wording I heard goes like this:

Two monks were walking along a path in the woods.  They came upon a young woman, who stood beside a wide, muddy puddle in the path, blocking the way.  One of the monks lifted the woman, carried her over his shoulder, and crossed the puddle.  He then let her down on the other side.  The young woman and the monks then went on their separate ways.  For a long time, the monks walked in silence, until the other monk broke the silence, "You carried the woman."  "I let her go hours ago," the first monk replied, "but you are still carrying her."

The other story I alluded to is worth posting while I'm at it, it's pretty funny and spot on:

A Zen master was meditating in a temple.  One day, two novices approached him.  One of them asked the master, "On what should I meditate?"  The Zen master immediately jumped up, grabbed the novice who asked him the question, and threw him out of the second-story window of the temple to the ground below.  The Zen master then jumped after the bruised novice.  The master then asked, "Get it?"

[Palmtree]

The other story I alluded to is worth posting while I'm at it, it's pretty funny and spot on:

A Zen master was meditating in a temple.  One day, two novices approached him.  One of them asked the master, "On what should I meditate?"  The Zen master immediately jumped up, grabbed the novice who asked him the question, and threw him out of the second-story window of the temple to the ground below.  The Zen master then jumped after the bruised novice.  The master then asked, "Get it?"

Yikes! And we're always reading here, how Christianity is supposedly soooo brutal. Compare the night-and-day difference between what occurred above, with what occurred when a Christian asked his Master a similar question....

^{Luke 11:1-4
And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.}

[wiscidea]

Yes...

There are forms of Buddhism that clearly encourage a brutal abusive relationship between master and novice. Another item Christopher Hitchens zeroes in on in his writing. I don't get it, would have no desire to submit to this, and cannot be a "cheerbot"—I love this term ever since I learned about here—for Buddhism for just this reason. I don't believe religious, philosophical, or political views that encourage dominance, mental or physical, of one human or another, are particularly healthy, moral, or ethical.

In her "Letting Go of God" monologue, Julia Sweeney covered another dark aspect of Buddhism... I don't recall which variety...  it is traditional for one son (first born, second born, I don't know) to enter a monastery at the age of about ten and train to become a monk. He has no say in the matter. It seems that a religion that cannot recruit new leaders without brain-washing indoctrination proper education at a very early age really don't warrant respect or ought to be encouraged. Hmmm... applies to some political views as well... Hitler Youth, Young Pioneers.

[Metis]

Yikes! And we're always reading here, how Christianity is supposedly soooo brutal. Compare the night-and-day difference between what occurred above, with what occurred when a Christian asked his Master a similar question....

It's a story that's not supposed to be taken literally.

[Palmtree]

Yikes! And we're always reading here, how Christianity is supposedly soooo brutal. Compare the night-and-day difference between what occurred above, with what occurred when a Christian asked his Master a similar question....

It's a story that's not supposed to be taken literally.

I got that, thanks. 

[Metis]

There are forms of Buddhism that clearly encourage a brutal abusive relationship between master and novice.

About the only kind of "abusive" handling of students I've run across falls into two areas.  One is a student may get a slap while meditating in order to get him back to a focus, and the other is to have the student get used to some harsh conditions by having their mind get off the hardship, such as sitting outside on the cold ground with little or no clothes on.  

However, in the eastern forms of Buddhism, culture often got injected whereas the relationship between the master and the student was typically quite rigid.  In the Buddhism of India and southern Asia, there was much more freedom for the student and one could question and disagree with his master.

In her "Letting Go of God" monologue, Julia Sweeney covered another dark aspect of Buddhism... I don't recall which variety...  it is traditional for one son (first born, second born, I don't know) to enter a monastery at the age of about ten and train to become a monk. He has no say in the matter.

Again, we're seeing a cultural thing with this since there is no teaching that mandates or encourages this.

Please note that I am not defending Buddhism since there has all too often been much done in its name that is certainly not acceptable-- at least to our way of thinking.  However, overall its track-record is actually quite commendable.  

[fenn]

The 'Zen slap' is for the people who are responsive to this, it's rare. Someone who has been smacked around and would only feel hate wouldn't get that. It's rare. There's myriad Buddhist methods for every kind of person.

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