"God" not the creator?

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[Gorm_Sionnach]

I ran across this article on another forum I frequent.

The claim is that due to a mistranslation, the word "create" in Genesis, ought to be "separated". Adding that when placed in context in the narration of the rest of the OT and when compared to contemporary cultures cosmogenic mythology, it makes sense.

Thoughts?

[kwd111]

Although open to such possibilities... first impression gives way for doubt for the following reasons.

1)  To quote a statement from Professor Ellen van Wolde, "There were sea monsters. God did create some things, but not the Heaven and Earth." gives the impression that he has already made determinations without empirical data.  Even if God did separate it... who is to say that God did not create it before?  And how does he know there were sea monsters already?

In other words, it sounds more like he has already made a presupposed position and is reading into what he wants to say.

2)  The application of "separated" vs "created (bara)" then must be applied to all other scriptures.  Ex.

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?  KJV

Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it  KJV

If I were to apply "separated" instead of "created" - it wouldn't be understandable.

3)  It is hard to think that it just meant "in the beginning of the story"

Gen 1:1-2
1:1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
KJV

[Lilly]

What I find interesting is this sentence: “The usual idea of creating-out-of-nothing, creatio ex nihilo, is a big misunderstanding.”

What she calls a big misunderstanding is the teaching of this in the New Testament written nearly 2,000 years ago.   It says:

"By faith we understand that the universe was formed a God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."  Hebrews 11:3

Also 2 Maccabees 7:27-29 states:  "I implore you, my child, observe heaven and earth, consider all that is in them, and acknowledge that God made them out of what did not exist, and that mankind comes into being in the same way."

If the author doesn't believe God made the universe ex nihilo, then she has two other choices.  It was made out of pre-existing material--ex materia, or out of God himself--ex deo, neither of which is supported in the Scriptures.

[Heterodoxus]

The claim is that due to a mistranslation, the word "create" in Genesis, ought to be "separated".

After parsing the possibilities that the form of the English verb create seen throughout Genesis might be incorrect, I verified that "created" is the correct rendering of the Hebrew verb בּרא (bara, to create per Strong's #H1254, et al.). Wherever "created" appears in the KJV of Genesis, it is always rendered from that same Hebrew verb. I found no instance where separated is a permissible rendering of בּרא.

Also:

• the LXX selected the Greek word EPOIHSEN (epoieysen, made) to translate the Hebrew verb בּרא
• a transcript of Genesis available from U.Muenster indicates that "a Deity named Elohim did it"
• the Westminster Leningrad Codex (WLC) indicates that בּראשׁית אלהים בּרא (in the beginning Elohiym created)
• even the Latin Vulgate confirms that rendering of that Hebrew verb ("in principio creavit Deus," or "In the beginning God created" according to the Douay-Rheims version

Were I preparing a paper on this topic, my thesis might indicate the possibility that someone is peeing on your leg and telling you it's raining.

[Flitzerbiest]

Call me crazy, but I don't think a PhD linguist is really all that concerned with what Strong's Concordance says.   

[Gorm_Sionnach]

Thanks for the input.

[Lilly]

• the LXX selected the Greek word EPOIHSEN (epoieysen, made) to translate the Hebrew verb בּרא
  

This is an excellent point and in my view shows the folly of the PhD linguist.   Genesis would have been one of the earliest books translated into Greek, and it would have been done by Jewish translators c. 200 BC who actually knew the Hebrew language.  They didn't translate bara as meaning separate, but as meaning made.  Now a scholar shows up 2200 years later and thinks she's discovered something new about the Bible?  Where have I heard that before?

[SteveC]

Now a scholar shows up 2200 years later and thinks she's discovered something new about the Bible?  Where have I heard that before?

LOL, the precedent for those sorts of things occurred 2000 years ago.

[Heterodoxus]

• the LXX selected the Greek word EPOIHSEN (epoieysen, made) to translate the Hebrew verb בּרא

This is an excellent point and in my view shows the folly of the PhD linguist.   Genesis would have been one of the earliest books translated into Greek, and it would have been done by Jewish translators c. 200 BC who actually knew the Hebrew language.  They didn't translate bara as meaning separate, but as meaning made.  Now a scholar shows up 2200 years later and thinks she's discovered something new about the Bible?  Where have I heard that before?

Thanks. I'll see her Ph.D., and raise her with Strong's S.T.D and LL.D.

Call.

[Coachbob]

Thanks. I'll see her Ph.D., and raise her with Strong's S.T.D and LL.D.

Call.

Not sure what Strong having a sexually tansmitted disease has to do with this discussion.

[Metis]

Now a scholar shows up 2200 years later and thinks she's discovered something new about the Bible?  Where have I heard that before?

LOL, the precedent for those sorts of things occurred 2000 years ago.

LOL! 

[Deacon777]

If I understand the "LOL" correctly, the "precedent" established 2000 years ago was not really an invention at all - but merely a belief that the Messianic promise embedded all throughout the Hebrew bible had been fulfilled.

[SteveC]

If I understand the "LOL" correctly, the "precedent" established 2000 years ago was not really an invention at all - but merely a belief that the Messianic promise embedded all throughout the Hebrew bible had been fulfilled.

Okie dokie

The holy spirit gives everybody the right to rip off the public domain. The apostles got there first, big deal.

[SquirleyWurley]

Re: linguistic arguments.

There was a big interest in etymological arguments, philology, in the 1800's, trying to trace the history of Arians through India etc., trying to trace the  history of gnosticism, etc., lots of speculation about racial  origins, relgious origins, origins of morality (Neitzsche was a philologist)

Didn't lead to solid theories that could withstand scrutiny or alternative interpretations.

[Heterodoxus]

Thanks. I'll see her Ph.D., and raise her with Strong's S.T.D and LL.D.

Call.

Not sure what Strong having a sexually tansmitted disease has to do with this discussion.

Oops! Perhaps I should clarify that the acronym S.T.D., or STD, is also an acronym for the Latin Sacrae Theologiae Doctorae (Doctor of Sacred Theology). LL.D., or LLD, is Doctor of Laws.

Sorry 'bout that!

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