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[Gorm_Sionnach]

I started a thread a few weeks ago, asking about the importance of a politicians religion in conjunction with their political party and platform, and wether that had any effect on voters. The article which sparked the question was one on a Republican Theodish Candidate, who had  (more or less) tried to keep his religion out of the public eye, as a non issue. Before the "outing" he was the favoured candidate, now he may not even be on the ballot.

Another story which has come up recently is that of Alice Richmond, who is running for District Supervisor, was the author of a
Pagan book under the psudonym Lady Raya. In both cases, the underlying motive for "outing" these candidates is to make use of their religious beliefs as a means of discrediting them.

There are a couple of issues then worth examining:

1. The ethicality of using a politicians religious beliefs as a tool to discredit them.

2. The issue of Pagans in the public eye, and especially those seeking public office, being open and upfront about their beliefs.

3. Why in both cases, each candidate felt the need to keep their religion on the down low. Clearly they were afraid that their religions would be detremental to their political careers, and the sad part is that they seem to be justified in their fears. Why in a country like the US, where religious freedom is one of the central values of the
vast majority of the population, are people treating this like some kind of scandal?

[ChicagoHeathen]

There are a couple of issues then worth examining:

1. The ethicality of using a politicians religious beliefs as a tool to discredit them.

It isn't ethical, period. Unless they're doing something illegal, it's not ethical, and, moreover, it is completely irrelevant. Also, as far as values go, Asatru and Theodish beliefs are very much about family, about kin ties, and about honor. You'd think those things would actually be valued...

2. The issue of Pagans in the public eye, and especially those seeking public office, being open and upfront about their beliefs.

Obviously, it is a struggle for heathens and pagans. A great deal of it is misconceptions. Just a year or two ago, Fox News here ran a story linking Asatru (as a whole) to the white supremacy movement. Of course, we're no more part of it because of some Odinist groups than Christians are because of the Christian Identity or KKK movement. We actually speak against them and let people know they don't speak for all heathens. Do you think, though, that this makes news? Of course not. I can't imagine it would be easier running for office.

3. Why in both cases, each candidate felt the need to keep their religion on the down low. Clearly they were afraid that their religions would be detremental to their political careers, and the sad part is that they seem to be justified in their fears. Why in a country like the US, where religious freedom is one of the central values of the
vast majority of the population, are people treating this like some kind of scandal?

Heck, I even look on these boards, where most of the people are fairly reasonable, and see hints of belief that my religion is a delusion sent by Satan. If this is among people who seem fairly reasonable, what are the idiot people going to think? Oh yeah, I'm a Satanist. I'm a white supremacist. It's complete and utter BS. I don't think that it will stop becoming a scandal until people grow up and get over themselves, or until we heathens and pagans (and others) start making charges of ritual cannibalism against Christians. Maybe that will open some eyes.

Frith,
CH

[Gwyddion9]

1. The ethicality of using a politicians religious beliefs as a tool to discredit them.

It is unethical, period. One of the biggest uses of this tool was the Republican Party ticket. Mitt Romney, a LDS or Mormon, was discredited by members of the GOP because of sect of Christianity he belonged to. Even, Huckabee, jumped on this wagon.
Being a good conservative Christian, we can’t have a non-Christian as president and through out the South, you heard the same thing echoed…he’s not Christian.
While it is unethical, it’s politics at its best. Understand, I'm not seeking to justify it but for some sects in this country, they can complain about things but still turn a blind eye when it suits their purpose.

2. The issue of Pagans in the public eye, and especially those seeking public office, being open and upfront about their beliefs.

I think they should but it’s hard on many levels, referring to work, family, friends, etc.
Movies, the Press, and other groups, specifically religious groups make an issue of pointing out those not of their beliefs. While I’m pleased that many Pagans do not back down when pushed, I sometimes think we should be more aggressive, meaning show, print articles where others are lying about us to suit there needs. Show them to be the liars they are! I think Conservative Christians have taken the attitude that they can bully others into submission, so, because of this, I think we should get back in their faces and point out the facts, and correct the lies, and publicly expose what they’re doing.
I’m generally a laid back guy who really doesn’t like getting into others faces but it’s been my personal experience, too many times, that certain Christian sects think they have the right to lie, present falsehoods about my beliefs and then expect me to cower from them. Because of this, I decided to stand up to them and back them down.

3. Why in both cases, each candidate felt the need to keep their religion on the down low. Clearly they were afraid that their religions would be detrimental to their political careers, and the sad part is that they seem to be justified in their fears. Why in a country like the US, where religious freedom is one of the central values of the
vast majority of the population, are people treating this like some kind of scandal?

Because religious intolerance is very much alive and well in this country. I think it’s important to state that it has been my personal experience that not all Christians are like this but those I’ve personally encountered have always been the conservative Christians. They seem to carry the opinion that since they’re only ones who are right, in their minds, that they have that right to interfere in everyone else’s life. I’m of the opinion that they should be called out whenever they do things like this so people are made aware of their actions. I think they need to be made accountable.

Here is a site called www.religioustolerance.org    They have a great deal of information from all over the world about tolerance and intolerance. They also have many issues presented as well. I’m providing a link to the section where intolerance has shown up in the news.
When you get there, simply scroll down and you’ll find the articles of intolerance in the news for several years. It isn’t everything but it shows what we have been discussing and it talks about intolerance in many religions, to be fair.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_news.htm

[Flitzerbiest]

Just a year or two ago, Fox News here ran a story linking Asatru (as a whole) to the white supremacy movement. Of course, we're no more part of it because of some Odinist groups than Christians are because of the Christian Identity or KKK movement.

CH,

I can barely spell Asatru, let alone describe its beliefs, but I've seen a number of allegations along this line while trying to educate myself on your faith.  Even Religious Tolerance mentions it, albeit as a corruption.

How much of a problem are racist splinter sects within Asatru?  I am asking out of interest and ignorance, and do not see this as part of your praxis in any way.

FB

[ChicagoHeathen]

Just a year or two ago, Fox News here ran a story linking Asatru (as a whole) to the white supremacy movement. Of course, we're no more part of it because of some Odinist groups than Christians are because of the Christian Identity or KKK movement.

CH,

I can barely spell Asatru, let alone describe its beliefs, but I've seen a number of allegations along this line while trying to educate myself on your faith.  Even Religious Tolerance mentions it, albeit as a corruption.

How much of a problem are racist splinter sects within Asatru?  I am asking out of interest and ignorance, and do not see this as part of your praxis in any way.

FB

They're problematic mainly in that they tend to be the ones that make headlines. Mostly there are some racists who try to use Asatru to their own ends because they can. Because Asatru deals much with cultural heritage, with honoring one's ancestors, with protecting one's kin and folk, there is room for those with a racist agenda to pervert these aspects to suit their agenda. It has also become popular among some prison inmates, giving them a restored sense of pride. Unfortunately, many of them go into it with shallow understanding, and essentially pervert it to suit their ends (or get special privileges.) Adding to the confusion are folkish Asatru. These are people who are more likely than not to be not racist, but who feel that one should be of Germanic / Nordic ancestry to be Asatru. This is often interpreted as racist. It can be, of course, combined with racism, but usually isn't.

Most Asatru groups that actually have formal organizations, whether they are folkish or not, make strong statements against racism. It is wrong, and it is a spiritual pollutant. Unfortunately, because of people who have used Asatru for racism, there is still that potential association. That is one of the reasons that the term "Odinist" is so rarely used anymore in the USA; other than it being more specific to one of our gods, it is typically the form of "religion" that the racists use. So, it is something that we are fighting, but... the racists aren't welcome, and they don't make policy.

[Gorm_Sionnach]

While not nearly as well known as Asatru's associations with racism, CR also has some people who try to use it as a means to justify and further dubious goals. There is of course a rather strong outcry among the community, CAORANN being the most well known. There are of course historic ties to gaelic culture and Racism in the US... flaming crosses come to mind.

Having said that, so little is known about CR, it is not really that big an issue outside the community.

Anyway, I think a lot of what has been said is relevant to the broader issue of general religious tolerance, but I also think that if more people could get past the shallow version of paganism (or better yet, beyod a general paganism to the specific religions) out there, they would find a lot more that is good, that they may even agree with: Honour, Truth, Family, Keeping ones word... I was under the impresion these were desirable traits in a politician?

[ChicagoHeathen]

I think the problem is, many people don't want to get beyond the shallow "understanding" of paganism and heathenry. They don't want to understand it. I've heard enough times that Wicca and Asatru and CR and the like aren't "real" religions, aren't "legitimate" religions. I've been told to my face that I should leave the country because my religion is un-American. I've read it in papers, read it on the net. How long did Wiccans have to fight to get the pentacle approved for Wiccan veterans' graves?

I think there is a certain subset of people who want to believe that, no matter how good our actions may be, no matter how close our values are to theirs, that we're somehow deceived by their Satan and are all hellbound. Even easier to believe we're secretly evil inside, and just pretend to be good, pretend to have similar values, and are maybe members of some Satanic conspiracy. I believe they want to believe this, because it is too frightening a world for them to live in if pagans and heathens can be good people without their god.

As long as there are large numbers of people who want to demonize us for having different gods, as long as there are people who want to believe we're evil, incapable of good, not really American, not following legitimate, "real" faiths, we'll always have trouble being elected.

[Gwyddion9]

CH,

I agree. There are many who simply do not care to learn or educate themselves about Paganism and all its subsets. There are those who, because you do not practice their religion, it makes you automatically wrong, mislead, deceived, evil and because of their perceptions. They have no interest nor would they ever take the time to educate themselves. Some of this attitude, I think, comes from arrogance, or stupidity or willful ignorance, and perhaps because they feel threatened. After all, some people cannot understand why you wouldn’t be fulfilled as they are with their religion. They cannot conceive of this thought. I have family who are like this and I tell them that I’ve moved on so the issue to me is a moot point. I also have family that seems to live in an atmosphere of fear. They simply are afraid of anyone not of their faith, their loss.
As a Wiccan, I’ve also had people tell me that my religion is false because it’s not as old as theirs, as though somehow time gives credence. I will then mention that their religion also had a starting point, as did all religions, and that if something is supposedly 2000 years old or even 50 years old, does not, in any way, make it null.

You mentioned the Pentacle on the gravestones of service men and women. Yes, it took awhile to get to this point and there are still those who do not approve. I think that in finally having the Pentacle scribed on a service man or woman’s gravestone, gave legitimacy to the religion. I thought that Thor’s Hammer was also an emblem that is available for those brothers and sisters who are Asatru, or at least thought it was so.

I think there will always be a subset of people who want to demonize Pagans in this country. Personally, I view it as their problem but I also think that the Pagans in this country are not going to cow to their religious beliefs, either.

[Gorm_Sionnach]

Both of you make good arguments, and I largely agree, but there seems to be some underlying xenophobia that goes beyond simple differences in religious belief; that as CH alluded to some feel that to be a member of a faith which is not some flavour of Christianity (or to a lesser extent Judiasm) is intriniscially un-American, but this is not (or does not appear to be) merely true among those frudamentalist groups; there is an inherit distrust of the "other" and it crosses political boundaries as I've shown.

I do think the specific's of Pagan faiths has to do with misconception which vascilates from one extreme (Pagans are in the service of Satan) to the other (Pagans are flakey nut jobs out of touch with reality).

Well we have expressed our feelings on the subject, I'd really like to hear perspectives from people outside the umbrella...

Maybe I should cross post in Interfaith or the Arena?

[Gwyddion9]

I have encountered a negative perception of Paganism from all sorts of Christianity. The more liberal or moderate (those I’ve dealt with) can’t understand why Paganism as what they have works for them and for that, I don’t have a problem. The more conservative are the ones that I’ve had issues with. In fact, I had a minor problem last week while driving with someone who decided that they needed to express their opinion of it to me. They didn’t like my Goddess Bless bumper sticker and express their opinion about it.
I’ve never encountered the un-American bit, so this one has me scratching my head. I understand what you wrote Gorm and can see what was said but considering that the U.S. is such a melting pot, it boggles the mind. 

“I do think the specific's of Pagan faiths has to do with misconception which vacillates from one extreme (Pagans are in the service of Satan) to the other (Pagans are flakey nut jobs out of touch with reality).”

Boy, isn’t this the truth. The Satan stuff I generally ignore unless it gets put in my face.
Most of the time, I dismiss the Satan stuff and if given a chance, will share the history of Satan to Christians, where it came from and how it developed and how Christianity created it.
The flaky Pagan bothers me more, I guess I somehow expect Pagans to know more and to know better but they do bother me as they affect the perceptions of how society views us all. Having no head council or dogma is a blessing and a curse at the same time. There is no leadership group that has real authority. Some people I’ve listed to have supported the idea but other do not like it as they see it as an attempt to make us more like the other religions who have all the high councils and such. Don’t know but it is something to consider but it’s going to be really complicated, I think.

I think the area is fine for this discussion.

[Coachbob]

1. The ethicality of using a politicians religious beliefs as a tool to discredit them.

It is unethical, period. One of the biggest uses of this tool was the Republican Party ticket. Mitt Romney, a LDS or Mormon, was discredited by members of the GOP because of sect of Christianity he belonged to. Even, Huckabee, jumped on this wagon.
Being a good conservative Christian, we can’t have a non-Christian as president and through out the South, you heard the same thing echoed…he’s not Christian.
While it is unethical, it’s politics at its best. Understand, I'm not seeking to justify it but for some sects in this country, they can complain about things but still turn a blind eye when it suits their purpose.

Horse hockey. To make such an assertion, you must ignore the eight years ( more, actually, as it is still going on) of trying to discredit Bush 43 for his deeply held convictions. 

As far as Romney goes, most real conservatives, especially after Fred Thompson got out, supported Romney, and a good number of those people are Christian. 

That said, I do not feel that using a person's religion in making a voting decision is unethical.  It is a factor in how one feels a person will lead and make decisions.  A leader who acknowledges God will turn to him for help in making wise decisions. A leader who has no such belief will have to turn to other sources.  Either way, knowing a candidate's religious views is essential to knowing how that person conducts his or her daily life which will inform us how that person will lead. 

What is unethical is suggesting that we ignore that one very important factor.

[Gwyddion9]

As you said, Horse hockey.

It was documented all over the news. People saying that they wouldn’t vote for Romney specifically because he was Mormon and not, as they viewed it, Christian.
Perhaps it isn’t unethical to vote against someone because of his or her religion but it’s the old adage of cutting ones nose off to spite their face. Who knows if someone is going to be great but the personal bias will keep people from ever finding out, which is really sad.

People claim to be religious or of a particular religion all the time but their actions don’t always reflect this concept; so to assume such is dumb. How many Republicans and Democrats have proven this idea completely unfounded.

[Gorm_Sionnach]

So it does then reflect the hypocricy of religious freedom in the US; one can be as openly religious as they want, so long as they are of the majority faith.

[ChicagoHeathen]

1. The ethicality of using a politicians religious beliefs as a tool to discredit them.

It is unethical, period. One of the biggest uses of this tool was the Republican Party ticket. Mitt Romney, a LDS or Mormon, was discredited by members of the GOP because of sect of Christianity he belonged to. Even, Huckabee, jumped on this wagon.
Being a good conservative Christian, we can’t have a non-Christian as president and through out the South, you heard the same thing echoed…he’s not Christian.
While it is unethical, it’s politics at its best. Understand, I'm not seeking to justify it but for some sects in this country, they can complain about things but still turn a blind eye when it suits their purpose.

Horse hockey. To make such an assertion, you must ignore the eight years ( more, actually, as it is still going on) of trying to discredit Bush 43 for his deeply held convictions. 

As far as Romney goes, most real conservatives, especially after Fred Thompson got out, supported Romney, and a good number of those people are Christian. 

That said, I do not feel that using a person's religion in making a voting decision is unethical.  It is a factor in how one feels a person will lead and make decisions.  A leader who acknowledges God will turn to him for help in making wise decisions. A leader who has no such belief will have to turn to other sources.  Either way, knowing a candidate's religious views is essential to knowing how that person conducts his or her daily life which will inform us how that person will lead. 

What is unethical is suggesting that we ignore that one very important factor.

And, if someone is conservative, believes in truth and honor and keeping one's oaths and the sanctity of family and commitments, but they honor Woden and Thunor instead of yahweh, and pour out mead onto the ground and ritually toast gods and heroes and ancestors instead of going to church, would this make the candidate unacceptable, because of the candidate's religious faith? We're talking about the use of religion to discredit a candidate, here. I think you can understand the difference between knowing it and using it to discredit.

--Frith,
CH

[Gwyddion9]

So it does then reflect the hypocricy of religious freedom in the US; one can be as openly religious as they want, so long as they are of the majority faith.

Apparently so. But this comes as no surprise.
Gorm and CH, sorry if i'm coming off negative on this discussion but some have left me with a bitter taste of their religion.

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