The Second Precept: Refrain From Taking What is Not Given

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[wiscidea]

Regarding the second Precept...

Refrain from taking what is not given (stealing).

I've heard that it extends way beyond stealing. Someone who studied Buddhism in Thailand commented that when he entered a home, he could not touch anything unless it was handed to him. For example, there was a book of photos—your standard coffee table book—on the table one time. He was very curious about it, but he could not ask to look at it and, since the host never offered him the opportunity, he could not even open it. The second Precept prohibited just picking it up and paging through it.

Has anyone encountered this interpretation before? Can you point to any discussion of how this interpretation arose?

Seems a bit extreme. Surely it doesn't apply to laypeople.

[Kartari]

I'm afraid I haven't encountered that before.  I've never been to Thailand, but my interpretation (as stealing) is from someone trained personally by Thich Nhat Hanh, a very famous Buddhist monk from Thailand.  Maybe it was watered down though for Westerners, or perhaps it is not universally regarded so extremely in Thailand?  I don't know enough, so I can't say.

[SteveC]

I think we have something similar to that understanding in our culture. There's an understanding that someone's diary and personal mail should not be openned. I don't think I've ever openned up a photo album unless invited to do so. As a matter of fact, I don't open anything that is closed. When I walk into people's homes, I don't touch anything, even in friend's homes. I'm not Mr. Social Graces, not by a long shot.

There's something sacred/strictly personal about items that include a person's name. You know what a photo album looks like and what it holds, so one should be able to conclude that an invitation would be necessary to open op someone's life story. One of sister-in-laws drive me nuts, she touches everything and probes everywhere. I always thought it was just a communal sisters thing.

I understand, in some Asian cultures, a business card should be treated with respect when given, not casually glanced at and stuffed into a pocket.

[Kartari]

I do the same as you, Steve.

[LeahOne]

An interesting discussion.  Judaism has a concept of 'theft of information/expertise'....  If I wanted to buy a washing machine and I went to Sears and took up the salesperson's time with finding out about all the features of different machines - and then I went out and looked online to find the cheapest price on that machine.  If I'd already planned to go online for the price, I have cheated the Sears person by essentially lying to them about wanting to make the purchase.  And depriving them of the chance to wait on a serious customer instead of doing my research for me.

Similarly, when people who buy jewelry lots come to me in the shop and ask me to evaluate their assortment and also suggest prices for it all, when they're going to put it in the shop right next to mine....  I will do it for people *once* and then again only if it never comes into that shop. 

Though it is nice to know people trust me to do right by them even when it's not necessarily in my best 'financial' interest. (I could, for example, wildly UNDERprice the good stuff - and then buy it as soon as it hit the sales floor.  Or, I could suggest OVERpricing so outrageous that prospective customers will turn away in disgust - and hopefully buy my stuff instead.)

I'm just too lazy to be duplicitous, I suppose.  GOD forbid I ever feel I need money enough to seek to gouge or cheat anyone who crosses my path in business.

[Kartari]

I agree.  It is another form of theft, I find this behavior very disgusting quite frankly.  I saw that all the time when I used to work retail... they'd call you on the phone even, and question you for 45 minutes if you let them, then hang up and buy elsewhere.  Do your own research, then approach salespeople only if you're at least seriously considering purchasing from them.

[SteveC]

Small world. I was a Sears salesperson for many years. Furniture, carpeting, TV, tractors, lawnmowers, hardware, home improvements. With the exception of furniture, which is a very subjective purchase, I usually got the sale. I was very knowledgable, we all were, and I knew when people were picking my brain. My goal was to find out why you were picking my brain and not buying. At that time the Sears name was a very powerful selling tools and I could use it to overcome most price objections.

Chevy and Sears, remember when things were that easy. The good old days!

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