The Third Noble Truth

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[wiscidea]

My original goal was to solicit opinions regarding each of the Four Noble Truths and the eight elements of the Eightfold Path, but I'm not convinced there is much to discuss about the Third Noble Truth. Never-the-less let's give it a whirl...

The Third Noble Truth

Translation of Pali text by Peter Harvey:

“Now this, bhikkhus, for the Noble One(s), is the pain-ceasing reality. It is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, non-reliance on it.”

[copyright © 2007, Peter Harvey, peter.harvey@sunderland.ac.uk; courtesy of Access to Insight, www.accesstoinsight.org]

Soooooooooooo....

If a person accepts the First and Second Noble Truth, it seems like a short leap of logic to the Third Noble Truth. First, life is painful. Second, life is painful due to demanding desire for pleasure, existence (especially independent existence), and extermination (especially of whatever one might find objectionable). Third, a person can reduce suffering by reducing craving, more specifically, by reducing demanding desire.

What more can a person say?

Am I missing something? What makes this Noble? Why didn't the Buddha collapse this down into three Noble Truths... there's suffering, suffering results from clinging, reduce clinging by cultivating the following eight habits?

Perhaps it has something with the oral transmission of the philosophy? From what I've read, I gather that a lot of the repetitive features of Buddhist writing, as well as the apparent obsession with numbering everything—four or these, eight of those, three of this, and so on—has to do with the necessity of remembering everything and passing it on to another person.

Anyway...

What makes the Third Noble Truth a Noble Truth?

Other comments on this?

[Flitzerbiest]

The third noble truth is the noblest of all.  It moves from the mere observation of suffering and its cause to the contention that release is possible.  The third noble truth (intentionally uncapitalized because I suspect Old Sid would have liked it that way) is a declaration of independence from the inevitability of anguish.

[Metis]

The Fourth Noble Truth is a process by which we can carry out the Third Noble Truth, which namely is to use the guidelines of the Eightfold Path (plus ideas of our own are very much allowed).  Since I assume you'll probably deal with that next, I'll stop at this point.

[Flitzerbiest]

Nuff said?  Maybe we should dive straight into right view...

[wiscidea]

The third noble truth is the noblest of all.  It moves from the mere observation of suffering and its cause to the contention that release is possible.  The third noble truth (intentionally uncapitalized because I suspect Old Sid would have liked it that way) is a declaration of independence from the inevitability of anguish.

I see... I totally missed this. I'm embarrassed by my display of ignorance, especially considering that recently posted some remarks about the Christian notion of sin that is overcome only through grace of God vs. the Buddhist notion of ignorance that is overcome by are own effort.

What you are saying—correct me if I'm wrong—is that the Third Noble Truth highlights the immense positive notion that there is an escape from suffering here and now. We have the power to do something about our situation. This is in sharp contrast to religions that depict the world as a crappy place we have to slog through, make the best of it, and hope for something better after we die. Buddhism is practical advice for action vs. despair and resignation.

Why do people think Buddhism is such a dark depressing philosophy?! 

Thank you.

[SteveC]

Could this letting go be an age related experience? Don't you have to go through a decent portion of your life, build up some experiences, feel some pain, and when you've accomplished this, tell yourself - it's over, I've paid my dues? Do young Buddhists know what they are freeing themselves from?

I have no experience with Buddhism, except that I know some of my neighbors are Buddhists, but I don't really talk to them. I see the elderly neighbors on their walks though the neighborhood and you sense a serenity about them. But they live in their children's homes (I hope I can pull off the same deal with my kids), along with the grandchildren. The grandchildren and their parents appear to be as caught up with life as the rest of us.

So my final question is - is there a Buddhist way of doing business so that you can provide for your family, while being able to let go of the suffering and desires?

[Metis]

Could this letting go be an age related experience? Don't you have to go through a decent portion of your life, build up some experiences, feel some pain, and when you've accomplished this, tell yourself - it's over, I've paid my dues?

Generally speaking, yes.  This does not mean, however, that a younger person cannot become enlightened to a large extent. 

However, the view of "enlightenment" is not completely agreed on between the various rafts.  A Zen practicioner would challenge my response above, but a Theravada monk would likely say I haven't gone far enough. 

Zen teaches that anyone may have a flash of enlightenment and study may actually hinder this, whereas the Theravadist monk will tend to say that one needs to spend enormous amounts of time in meditation and study, and that's it's likely only monks may reach nirvana because of they are probably the only ones that can afford that much time. 

But I think most of us, especially here in the west, tend to take the view that enlightenment is an on-going process that both young and old can get something out of through life experiences, meditation, and contemplation.

Do young Buddhists know what they are freeing themselves from?

They should since the teachings are quite clear.  The path is laid out for them, but they still must walk THEIR path.  IOW, a monk or teacher can help us to find A path, but then we have to take ourselves part of the way since each of us is different, plus it is quite acceptable to question and challenge any teaching found in dharma.


 

So my final question is - is there a Buddhist way of doing business so that you can provide for your family, while being able to let go of the suffering and desires?

Yes, and the Eightfold Path can help us do just that:
5. Right Livelihood

Right livelihood means that one should earn one's living in a righteous way and that wealth should be gained legally and peacefully. The Buddha mentions four specific activities that harm other beings and that one should avoid for this reason: 1. dealing in weapons, 2. dealing in living beings (including raising animals for slaughter as well as slave trade and prostitution), 3. working in meat production and butchery, and 4. selling intoxicants and poisons, such as alcohol and drugs. Furthermore any other occupation that would violate the principles of right speech and right action should be avoided.
-- http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html

And here's the list of eight:
1 Right view
2 Right intention
3 Right speech
4 Right action
5 Right livelihood
6 Right effort
6 Right mindfulness
6 Right concentration
7 Right knowledge and right liberation

To make it a bit more clear, substitute "appropriate" for "right".

[SteveC]

Okie dokey,

Is this part of the Buddhist training:

And here's the list of eight:
1 Right view
2 Right intention
3 Right speech
4 Right action
5 Right livelihood
6 Right effort
6 Right mindfulness
6 Right concentration
7 Right knowledge and right liberation

There's supposed to be a list of eight but there are:
 

• nine lines
• 3 - #6's
• no 8
• 10 actual items

Am I enlightened? When do I start hovering in the air?

[Flitzerbiest]

Never.  Still, if you have any genuine interest in Buddhism and/or a more organized atheistic spirituality, I would recommend reading Buddhism with Beliefs by Batchelor.

[Metis]

Okie dokey,

Is this part of the Buddhist training:

And here's the list of eight:
1 Right view
2 Right intention
3 Right speech
4 Right action
5 Right livelihood
6 Right effort
6 Right mindfulness
6 Right concentration
7 Right knowledge and right liberation

There's supposed to be a list of eight but there are:
 

• nine lines
• 3 - #6's
• no 8
• 10 actual items

Am I enlightened? When do I start hovering in the air?

Now you know why I didn't teach math.

Eliminate the last item and re-number to look like this:
1 Right view
2 Right intention
3 Right speech
4 Right action
5 Right livelihood
6 Right effort
7 Right mindfulness
8 Right concentration


Smart ass.

[SteveC]

Okie dokey,

Is this part of the Buddhist training:

And here's the list of eight:
1 Right view
2 Right intention
3 Right speech
4 Right action
5 Right livelihood
6 Right effort
6 Right mindfulness
6 Right concentration
7 Right knowledge and right liberation

There's supposed to be a list of eight but there are:
 

• nine lines
• 3 - #6's
• no 8
• 10 actual items

Am I enlightened? When do I start hovering in the air?

Now you know why I didn't teach math.

Eliminate the last item and re-number to look like this:
1 Right view
2 Right intention
3 Right speech
4 Right action
5 Right livelihood
6 Right effort
7 Right mindfulness
8 Right concentration


Smart ass.

LOL, That's better.

I'm only here to serve.

[wiscidea]

Never.  Still, if you have any genuine interest in Buddhism and/or a more organized atheistic spirituality, I would recommend reading Buddhism with Beliefs by Batchelor.

Buddhism Without Beliefs... that's the title.... good book.

I'd try to recommend others, but it's been a while since I read them. Someone might also look at Buddhism Plain and Simple or Buddhism is Not What you Think by Hagen.

[Flitzerbiest]

Oops.  Really bad typo.  Thanks for the correction.

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