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[Deacon777]

author=Chokmah link=topic=1823.msg53971#msg53971 date=1242835734]

Since the Orthodox, the Anglican, and the Lutheran all have married priests, what's the big deal with making celibacy optional?

The "big deal" to some (not me) is that to relax this discipline would be just another sign the church is compromising with modernity. We've had the celibacy requirement for about 1200 years, and while it is just a discipline, you can be sure some folks will fight for it as if it were a doctrine.

In fairness to the church, there would also be some practical matters to consider like the increased cost of health care to cover the priest and his family; having or finding a rectory that will house the family; would there be any requirements concerning the age of the priest children, etc, etc, etc.

I know that various Evangelical pastors have a difficult time staying faithful to their wives, and adultery is quite common in the various Bible churches. I have spoken to Fundagelical pastors about the scandal of divorce and remarriage among the pastors, and they have no idea of how to reign it in.

"Fundagelical pastors"...LOL. Now I haven't heard that one before. I'd like to think that married priest would behave themselves like married deacons. From my experience, we haven't experienced any hanky-panky, at least nothing that anyone knows about. But I have no allusions. Ordination (married or not) does not inoculate one from sin and temptation. On average though, I think making celibacy optional is a net gain for the church.
   

Perhaps the Churches should just get out of the morality business

You mean, just talk a good game but not live it. Who is going to listen to that sort of person? There is a cost to discipleship and one of those costs is mastering your own hereditary desire for the "forbidden apple". We have to believe Christ transforms us, else what is the point - fire insurance?

[Jane Good]

If they allowed married priest would that create a two different but equal authority levels in the priesthood. Could a married priest be a Cardinal? It would really upon up a can full of different questions and problems.

[CCC460]

You mean, just talk a good game but not live it. Who is going to listen to that sort of person? 

well, that's one of the reasons why the Church has some real problems right now in the priest scandal.
Talk the talk, but don't walk the walk has gotten the hierarchy into a situation in which their personal credibility is pretty compromised at this time.

[CCC460]

thanks for the clarifications, Deac. that makes sense. I forgot that candidates for the priesthood do have some different/more courses and a bigger program to go through.

[Shirley]

lol, with such a name (and face), he had to get into problems

He is the priest with the girlfriend, caught by paparazzi on a Miami beach and now caught, he says, between love for a woman and his church.

Only the Rev. Alberto Cutie, a celebrity among Hispanic Catholics for his good looks, media savvy and advice about relationships, can't have both. As Cutie decides between clerical collar and wedding ring, he is sure of one thing: He doesn't want to be "the anti-celibacy priest."

(source)

I can't get the picture of Father Cutie.    The link is not working.

[Celsus]

lol, with such a name (and face), he had to get into problems

He is the priest with the girlfriend, caught by paparazzi on a Miami beach and now caught, he says, between love for a woman and his church.

Only the Rev. Alberto Cutie, a celebrity among Hispanic Catholics for his good looks, media savvy and advice about relationships, can't have both. As Cutie decides between clerical collar and wedding ring, he is sure of one thing: He doesn't want to be "the anti-celibacy priest."

(source)

I can't get the picture of Father Cutie.    The link is not working.

This is Father Cutie:



And another link about the story.

[CCC460]

I just heard a news report on the radio that the padre was leaving the Catholic Church to become Episcopalian.

I would think that the Episcopalian Bishop which he will be subordinate to, would consider that he broke a solemn vow to also be a serious matter, irregardless of how one feels about celibacy.

Maybe not.

[Corrigan37]

I don't think the priests should be celibate.

I didn't think the first picture of Mr cutie was all that cute.
The second picture makes him appear to be a man whore.. but that's just a first impression off of a picture.

[CCC460]

Corrigan,

I think the problem lies in the fact that he took a vow of celibacy. He knew what he was doing when he took the vow. and even by entering into a relationship with a divorced women, unless she had a decree of nullity, she isn't even really available to date, much less a priest.

I see the problem less about celibacy, and more about the fact that he was sneaking around and going against his vows.

[Corrigan37]

Corrigan,

I think the problem lies in the fact that he took a vow of celibacy. He knew what he was doing when he took the vow. and even by entering into a relationship with a divorced women, unless she had a decree of nullity, she isn't even really available to date, much less a priest.

I see the problem less about celibacy, and more about the fact that he was sneaking around and going against his vows.

Are those vows made to God? the church? or both?
Do you believe it's ok for him to decide later on that he no longer wanted to be celibate and give up those vows?

[costrel]

Since the Orthodox, the Anglican, and the Lutheran all have married priests, what's the big deal with making celibacy optional?

I know that various Evangelical pastors have a difficult time staying faithful to their wives, and adultery is quite common in the various Bible churches. I have spoken to Fundagelical pastors about the scandal of divorce and remarriage among the pastors, and they have no idea of how to reign it in.

Perhaps the Churches should just get out of the morality business.

 

I agree. In addition, the Church could make celibacy an option for monasticism as well, as one sometimes finds in Buddhism.

[CCC460]

Are those vows made to God? the church? or both?

I believe that they are to both.

Do you believe it's ok for him to decide later on that he no longer wanted to be celibate and give up those vows?

Well, I believe that sometimes people feel that they can no longer live up to the vocation that they have chosen. When this happens in the religious life, there is a way to remedy that. Fr. Cutie could have taken that path, but he chose not to.

I think that this issue revolves around the concept of vocation.
We are all called to a vocation in life. For many, that means either married or celibate. And each of those vocations has its place within the kingdom of God.

When a priest is ordained, they make a free-will decision to choose one vocation over another. And in doing so, they limit themselves by feely choosing their vocation. the same can be said of the vocation of marriage as well. Once someone chooses to commit to another, their vow is made before God and the Church.

Now, what's going to happen to the congregation in which Fr. Cutie was a shepherd of? He is committing an act of formal schism in leaving the Church. That is a very serious sin. Even Scripture affirms such. Will he lead some of his congregation out of the Church as well?
Today, switching Churches is seen as no big deal, but I think that this is only because of a laxity of attitudes within Christendom that does not seriously understand how sinful formal schism actually is.

[CCC460]

I agree. In addition, the Church could make celibacy an option for monasticism as well, as one sometimes finds in Buddhism.

I don't really know how it is done in Buddhism, but the reason why the Church has traditionally only ordained married men, and prohibited ordained men from marrying is because of the concept of vocation as a calling from God. Those vocations include married life and celibate life. Ordination affirms those vocations in a sense of permanency of God's calling. This is why ordination freezes the marital status of the candidate.
I'm not sure if Buddhism would see this in the same way, so that might be why there is a difference.

[ChicagoHeathen]

My whole family is Roman Catholic, including two nuns (one deceased), two priests, and one former priest, who actually did resign from the priesthood because he fell in love with a woman. (They later married, and have been married since the early 70s.) My uncle said that the hardest thing for him was to be unable to preach God's word in the way he used to. He still felt called to that, but knew that marriage was also right for him.

I agree that Father Cutie's main offense was the lying, deception, and oathbreaking. I would have a hard time trusting him, especially as he seems unapologetic and unrepentant. Yes, I believe the RCC is wrong in their choice to force priests to be unmarried and celibate. However, it isn't like it's some secret surprise he only found out about after ordination. I hope he can behave more honorably as an Episcopalian.

[Deacon777]

Exactly. Every Catholic priest knows exactly what they are getting into - as they have a full SIX years (on avg) to think about it before taking their final vows.

I realize life can throw unexpected curves at you and nobody can foresee the future - BUT - the honorable thing to do is ask to be released from the priesthood THEN marry the woman.

Would we be having this conversation is Cutie wasn't outed? No we would not. He would still be a Catholic priest fooling around behind his bishop's (and the laity's) back. He was evidently OK with that arrangement until he got caught.

The reason he is an Episcopalian today is because...he got caught.

For the life of me, I cannot understand WHY a bishop (any bishop) would offer this guy a post under his jurisdiction at this time. Like I keep saying, if he is capable of defying his vows to the Church over a woman, he is quite capable of defying his vows to his current lover - over a woman.

This isn't about celibacy. This is about wanting that forbidden apple that you were told not to touch. It would have been about celibacy if he left the priesthood over a woman. But he left the priesthood because he got caught. That is the long and short of it.   
 

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