Pointless Killing of Animals

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[wiscidea]

This is bugging me.

My brother-in-law was telling us about his son's marksmanship following Easter dinner. The two were out hunting turkey. My nephew saw a crow about 80 yards away and asked his father if he could shoot it. My brother-in-law said something like, "Sure. It's considered a pest." My nephew aimed, pulled the trigger, and killed the bird. Apparently something to be proud of. The two of them packed up their gear and went home.

I was speechless. The guy is teaching his son it is okay to kill an animal that isn't bothering anyone.

If you hunt, how often do you just kill something -- something you have no intention of eating or taking home for some other reason -- just because you can? Do your friends do this sort of thing? How common is this?

This isn't right.

How do we stop it?

Opinions?

[VG59]

This sort of thing makes me sad and angry.  The young boy is picking up on a value or a lack thereof about life.  I think this sort of carass attitude extends to how these people care or regard the entire environment in general.  It is as if anything is for their pleasure and taking and that the consequences or impact do not matter. 

Killing should be about survival and eating.  If an animal is impacting on your health or safety it is reasonable to kill it imo if there are no other alternatives.  If you are planning on eating the animal it is acceptable. 

But just because "crows are pests" that has me sick to my stomache.

I have a relative that kills squirrels because they get into his bird feeder.  I have to just walk away from the conversation I am so upset about it.  Get a squirrel proof bird feeder, they have them. 

When we used to be sailboat people kids would fish from the dock, catch small 'bull' fish that were non eatable and kill them.  Parents ignored this as if it was typical play for young kids.  And these kids were all under eight.  I would not allow my kid to participate.  I knew it took him out of the social sphere, but I just couldn't let him do this. 

I wished there was a way to impart to people who do this a better way and a value of respect for life.  But there really isn't.  They are not going to listen.  The best you can do is try to impart it to your own family. 

 

[Jane Good]

This is bugging me.

My brother-in-law was telling us about his son's marksmanship following Easter dinner. The two were out hunting turkey. My nephew saw a crow about 80 yards away and asked his father if he could shoot it. My brother-in-law said something like, "Sure. It's considered a pest." My nephew aimed, pulled the trigger, and killed the bird. Apparently something to be proud of. The two of them packed up their gear and went home.

I was speechless. The guy is teaching his son it is okay to kill an animal that isn't bothering anyone.

If you hunt, how often do you just kill something -- something you have no intention of eating or taking home for some other reason -- just because you can? Do your friends do this sort of thing? How common is this?

This isn't right.

How do we stop it?

Opinions?

This is wrong. The only way we can fix it is to make sure we teach our families not to do it and to speak out against it. We have a personal responsibility to say something about it when people are talking about things that we consider wrongs in our presence. I have learned if you say something in a nice and honest way people will not react negatively. I would have said “I could not have killed that blackbird since I was not going to eat it.” That way I make my point that I consider it wrong but am not confronting him. This also keeps the path open to dialogue. Our responsibility is not to change how others think but to be honest in about how we think. Silence is consensus many times.

[mytmouse57]

Even if you're a vegitarian, plenty of animals are killed to protect the crops. Crows are, indeed, serious pests in that regard in many areas. They can over-populate quite easily, because, amont other things, they are very prolific, clever opportunists and very aggressive about driving other species out. In my state, there's a no-limit open season on them. In otherwords, you can shoot them on sight, as many as you want. And yet, there are still plenty of crows. I see a dozen or so every time I take my dogs out for their daily walk in the countryside.

In nature, virtually every living entity kills or drives away others to protect its turf. Why should people be any different?

Yes, that can and has been taken to extremes. For example, I've got no problem with guys applying the skill and patience it takes to hunt coyotes in a fair, no-gimmicks manner. But on the other hand, I think too many people are just too eager to blow any coyote away, any time.

But honestly, this notion that we should never kill pest animals, ever, because it strikes some as cruel is equally ridiculous.

[costrel]

This is bugging me.

My brother-in-law was telling us about his son's marksmanship following Easter dinner. The two were out hunting turkey. My nephew saw a crow about 80 yards away and asked his father if he could shoot it. My brother-in-law said something like, "Sure. It's considered a pest." My nephew aimed, pulled the trigger, and killed the bird. Apparently something to be proud of. The two of them packed up their gear and went home.

I was speechless. The guy is teaching his son it is okay to kill an animal that isn't bothering anyone.

If you hunt, how often do you just kill something -- something you have no intention of eating or taking home for some other reason -- just because you can? Do your friends do this sort of thing? How common is this?

This isn't right.

How do we stop it?

Opinions?

I'm not sure how to stop senseless killing of animals. For instance, twice this week I have gone outside in the morning to find a flattened muskrat in the road where the speed limit is only 20 miles an hour. In both cases, the muskrat had obviously not only been hit, but run over. It is hard for me to think that these killings were not done on purpose. I have also seen ground squirrels run over in a campground where the speed limit is 10 miles an hour, as well as an opossum run over in a parking lot. Again, I assume that the killings of these animals were deliberate. It is one thing to run over a small animal or hit a deer when going 65 or 75 miles an hour (the speed-limit on South Dakota's highways and Interstates, respectively) -- it's quite another thing to run over and flatten an animal when going 10 or 20 miles an hour, or even going a slower speed in a parking lot.

The only way I can think to stop killings such as this or shooting animals for the sake of the kill as sport is a change of consciousness -- of an acceptance that an animal has its own right to life, and if we do kill it for food (as we don't really need to kill animals for other needs such as shelter, etc.) is to do it in a respectful manner, fully aware of the fact that we are taking a life, and what that means. Of course, seeing some of the ways that people can so callously hurt other human beings, or walk by those in need, particularly in large urban areas, shows that people have a long way to go just in respecting the rights of other human beings, let alone the rights on non-human beings.

[Jane Good]

Even if you're a vegitarian, plenty of animals are killed to protect the crops. Crows are, indeed, serious pests in that regard in many areas. They can over-populate quite easily, because, amont other things, they are very prolific, clever opportunists and very aggressive about driving other species out. In my state, there's a no-limit open season on them. In otherwords, you can shoot them on sight, as many as you want. And yet, there are still plenty of crows. I see a dozen or so every time I take my dogs out for their daily walk in the countryside.

In nature, virtually every living entity kills or drives away others to protect its turf. Why should people be any different?

Yes, that can and has been taken to extremes. For example, I've got no problem with guys applying the skill and patience it takes to hunt coyotes in a fair, no-gimmicks manner. But on the other hand, I think too many people are just too eager to blow any coyote away, any time.

But honestly, this notion that we should never kill pest animals, ever, because it strikes some as cruel is equally ridiculous.

Isn't it different to pick off crows if you are growing corn then just killing any old crow?

[mytmouse57]

Even if you're a vegitarian, plenty of animals are killed to protect the crops. Crows are, indeed, serious pests in that regard in many areas. They can over-populate quite easily, because, amont other things, they are very prolific, clever opportunists and very aggressive about driving other species out. In my state, there's a no-limit open season on them. In otherwords, you can shoot them on sight, as many as you want. And yet, there are still plenty of crows. I see a dozen or so every time I take my dogs out for their daily walk in the countryside.

In nature, virtually every living entity kills or drives away others to protect its turf. Why should people be any different?

Yes, that can and has been taken to extremes. For example, I've got no problem with guys applying the skill and patience it takes to hunt coyotes in a fair, no-gimmicks manner. But on the other hand, I think too many people are just too eager to blow any coyote away, any time.

But honestly, this notion that we should never kill pest animals, ever, because it strikes some as cruel is equally ridiculous.

Isn't it different to pick off crows if you are growing corn then just killing any old crow?

Perhaps. But I'd be willing to bet the turkey hunters were in or near agricultural land. Either way, the world isn't going to run out of crows any time soon.

[mytmouse57]

"I'm not sure how to stop senseless killing of animals. For instance, twice this week I have gone outside in the morning to find a flattened muskrat in the road where the speed limit is only 20 miles an hour. In both cases, the muskrat had obviously not only been hit, but run over. It is hard for me to think that these killings were not done on purpose. I have also seen ground squirrels run over in a campground where the speed limit is 10 miles an hour, as well as an opossum run over in a parking lot. Again, I assume that the killings of these animals were deliberate. It is one thing to run over a small animal or hit a deer when going 65 or 75 miles an hour (the speed-limit on South Dakota's highways and Interstates, respectively) -- it's quite another thing to run over and flatten an animal when going 10 or 20 miles an hour, or even going a slower speed in a parking lot."

People are probably apt to kill rodents or similar creatures without a thought because our history with them being pests, crop raiders or dreadful disease carriers. It's ingrained in our cultural conciousness -- and not without reason -- to veiw rodents as targets of opportunity.

[costrel]

People are probably apt to kill rodents or similar creatures without a thought because our history with them being pests, crop raiders or dreadful disease carriers. It's ingrained in our cultural conciousness -- and not without reason -- to veiw rodents as targets of opportunity.

Not "people," but Euro-American Christians. According to the Native Americans of the Plains, the muskrat helped create the world. It is not a pest, but a helpmate of the Creator. 

[wiscidea]

Just to clarify...

The original post was not meant to criticize hunting or control of pests. I don't object to hunting as means of acquiring food (discussed elsewhere) or the control of pests (which could be discussed elsewhere, but might belong here). I'm wondering about the morality of just killing something because it is there and no one is interested in stopping you, regardless of economic gain, protection of something one might value, or simple collateral damage as part of living on Earth. As someone once pointed out, we are all ultimately food for something else.

That said...

I don't know whether my brother-in-law and nephew were in agricultural country. I suppose it is a good point. If a farmer was permitting them to hunt near a recently planted field of corn, perhaps killing the crow could be justified. But I think their action is over the top. It is one thing to defend seed in the ground or one's crops, it is another thing to declare open season on a possible pest some distance from a farm. It wouldn't be right to exterminate crows as a species. They serve a valuable function by cleaning up carrion and reducing the spread of disease and other pests. They also eat young rodents, which happen to be pests. So why kill them if you don't have to?

Regarding another pest mentioned... coyotes. Why exterminate them?! At the moment, I have to go through enormous effort to protect fruit trees, my vegetable gardens, berry bushes, and rare native plants from rabbits and voles. I think it would be less expensive and more efficient to have more coyotes around my home. The coyotes also get rid of feral cats, a threat to rare birds and reptiles.

Seems that declaring open season on one "pest" just leaves us with other problems that we have to spend money on to fix... whether it is cleaning up carrion, buying fences or expensive replacements for fruit trees, or killing or capturing feral cats (who don't seem very effective against rabbits).

Nothing wrong with getting rid of the mice in one's house, by whatever means necessary. (Though the first line of defense should be exclusion, since you really don't know how much damage they might do before you discover them.) But I don't think it means we should kill every mouse we find, wherever we find it. Would it really be appropriate, if I was out walking in the woods, miles from my house, to kill every mouse I happened to find just in case it or one of its relatives might try to get into my house? That's how I view the crow issue.

I guess we could expand this topic or create a new thread. I'll leave it up to someone else...

Is genocide of a species moral acceptable to protect human "turf"? Are there any limits? Sure, it has been done in the past, but is it morally acceptable today?

[mytmouse57]

People are probably apt to kill rodents or similar creatures without a thought because our history with them being pests, crop raiders or dreadful disease carriers. It's ingrained in our cultural conciousness -- and not without reason -- to veiw rodents as targets of opportunity.

Not "people," but Euro-American Christians. According to the Native Americans of the Plains, the muskrat helped create the world. It is not a pest, but a helpmate of the Creator. 

Some of the plains indians would drive herds of bison off cliffs, killing or maiming far more animals than they needed or ever intended to use. Also, while they might have held the muskrat in high regard, I doubt they would have hesitated to kill mice or rats that got into their camps or villages.

And Euro-Americans had reason to dislike rodents. The bubonic plauge, for starters.

[mytmouse57]

Just to clarify...

The original post was not meant to criticize hunting or control of pests. I don't object to hunting as means of acquiring food (discussed elsewhere) or the control of pests (which could be discussed elsewhere, but might belong here). I'm wondering about the morality of just killing something because it is there and no one is interested in stopping you, regardless of economic gain, protection of something one might value, or simple collateral damage as part of living on Earth. As someone once pointed out, we are all ultimately food for something else.

That said...

I don't know whether my brother-in-law and nephew were in agricultural country. I suppose it is a good point. If a farmer was permitting them to hunt near a recently planted field of corn, perhaps killing the crow could be justified. But I think their action is over the top. It is one thing to defend seed in the ground or one's crops, it is another thing to declare open season on a possible pest some distance from a farm. It wouldn't be right to exterminate crows as a species. They serve a valuable function by cleaning up carrion and reducing the spread of disease and other pests. They also eat young rodents, which happen to be pests. So why kill them if you don't have to?

Regarding another pest mentioned... coyotes. Why exterminate them?! At the moment, I have to go through enormous effort to protect fruit trees, my vegetable gardens, berry bushes, and rare native plants from rabbits and voles. I think it would be less expensive and more efficient to have more coyotes around my home. The coyotes also get rid of feral cats, a threat to rare birds and reptiles.

Seems that declaring open season on one "pest" just leaves us with other problems that we have to spend money on to fix... whether it is cleaning up carrion, buying fences or expensive replacements for fruit trees, or killing or capturing feral cats (who don't seem very effective against rabbits).

Nothing wrong with getting rid of the mice in one's house, by whatever means necessary. (Though the first line of defense should be exclusion, since you really don't know how much damage they might do before you discover them.) But I don't think it means we should kill every mouse we find, wherever we find it. Would it really be appropriate, if I was out walking in the woods, miles from my house, to kill every mouse I happened to find just in case it or one of its relatives might try to get into my house? That's how I view the crow issue.

I guess we could expand this topic or create a new thread. I'll leave it up to someone else...

Is genocide of a species moral acceptable to protect human "turf"? Are there any limits? Sure, it has been done in the past, but is it morally acceptable today?

I've hunted since I was old enough to hike and carry an air rifle, and I would agree that I have a problem with killing something just because it's there.

As far as "pests," I also agree that needs to be tempered. Closer study of such species as coyote is revealing that over-zealous killing of them can actually increase the problems. For example, if you have an established group of coyotes on your property, you might be best to just leave them be. Not only will they help control rodents and other such critters, they will also drive other coyotes off the land.

[Jane Good]

Perhaps. But I'd be willing to bet the turkey hunters were in or near agricultural land. Either way, the world isn't going to run out of crows any time soon.

But is it ever wise to kill an animal that you do not eat or is not causing harm? Could you give me a reason why?

[costrel]

Some of the plains indians would drive herds of bison off cliffs, killing or maiming far more animals than they needed or ever intended to use. Also, while they might have held the muskrat in high regard, I doubt they would have hesitated to kill mice or rats that got into their camps or villages.

And Euro-Americans had reason to dislike rodents. The bubonic plauge, for starters.

Yes, that's how bison were killed before the advent of the horse. But that is different than swerving one's vehicle just to hit an animal (as I have seen people in pickups do with rabbits and gophers) or refusing to slow down when an animal is in one's path. How hard is it to slow down and miss an animal when you're only supposed to be going 10 or 20 miles an hour (if one is driving the speed limit, that is)? When I was growing up, some of the neighbor kids would put firecrackers in the mouths of toads and throw toads on the sidewalk like rubber balls, so I suppose I shouldn't expect more from adults.

I would have to check and find out if Plains tribes would kill mice and rats in their camps, lodges, and tipis. I'm sure someone at Pine Ridge could tell me.

[VG59]

Driving herds of bison off of a cliff in order to feed a village can hardly be compared to recreational shooting of animals under the guise of "well they are pests".  Nor is the comparison to killing plague infested rodents.  Both of these are very reasonable things to do. 

The recreational shooting or shooting for fun, it just demonstrates a certain disregard for life and the environment in general. 

I don't like it. 

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