3rd Noble Truth?

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[SquirleyWurley]

I have a tendency to approach traditions/stories/religions/systems with an eye towards distilling some 'core' issues/themes/identified problems/attempted solutions.

The 'key' story I see in Buddhism has to do with this Prince who was sheltered from suffering, and when exposed to various forms of it all around him, became profoundly troubled, and tried to approach the subject through extreme fasting, etc., but eventually decided that wasn't helpful (brought it's own problems and didn't address his concerns) -- and that this lead to the identification of the '4 noble truths' -- that's the context....  There is needless/useless suffering/anguish, We can try to observe whatever causes there may be, if we can identify causes we may be able to take some sort of approach that reduces or eliminates the effects, there is a path one can take to address needless/useless suffering/anguish.  Three poisons can be observed as causing much suffering: intense aversion (fear/panic or anger/hatred) are toxic and have all sorts of consequences, greedy clinging to things is problematic, and so is ignorance/confusion.  If we can look at these poisons perhaps we can see how they arise and develop insight in cutting off some of these processes at the root.

The point is, there's this incredibly unsatisfactory condition, needless/useless anguish/suffering (dukka implies all of this, 'suffering' isn't a great translation, from what I understand), and we can try to look at it squarely, clearly, with the energy of our attention, and also with a sort of relaxed openness, and develop insight and deal more effectively with it, as human beings engaged in the lives of others.

[metis]

One can argue that the story of Old Sid is unimportant as to whether it actually occurred or not since it's the teachings, especially the FNT and the EP, that really are at the center of dharma.  Much of rest is overshadowed by these teachings, including certain concepts such as karma, nirvana, rebirth, etc.  Even though these latter items are certainly found within the Pali Canon and the sutras, they are really not the centerpieces of dharma.

[jacknky]

Perhaps we should meditate daily on these issues for a few years and get back together later.

[metis]

Perhaps we should meditate daily on these issues for a few years and get back together later.

There's a time to meditate and a time to get work done, the latter of which my wife reminds me of all the time. 

[jacknky]

"There's a time to meditate and a time to get work done, the latter of which my wife reminds me of all the time."

LOL.

[wiscidea]

Here's my interpretation of what I've heard. I could be wrong.

The problem is not desire itself. One can pursue material objects and interpersonal relationships, but suffering will arise if the person clings to permanence. We're supposed to avoid attachment to permanence. Enjoy, say, the food in front of you. But don't be upset once it is gone... nothing, nothing at all last for ever. Love your spouse and spend time with him or her TODAY, because you will not be with that person forever... there will be a day when one, the other, or both of you no longer exists.

Recognition that all is temporary, subject to death and decay, it not meant to paint a gloomy picture and suggest not worrying about tomorrow. It is meant to spur us to live in THIS moment. The past cannot be changed; don't cling to it. The future is not predictable; don't cling to it. Live the present. Plan for tomorrow... that's part of living! But don't be surprise if things unfold a bit differently than you hoped for.

Sorry... I can't quote scripture. I have something about this in my Beliefnet journal and will try to dig it up later... if it is still there.

Namaste

[Kartari]

According to the third noble truth of Buddhism, if we give up our craving and learn to live each day one at a time (not dwelling in the past or what might happen in the future) then we can become happy and free.  Does this noble truth encourage unemployment, failed future commitments, and a general tendancy for a disorganized lifestyle?

The Third Noble Truth explains that there is a means to end stress or suffering (the word "dukka" can be translated as stress, suffering, unsteady, uneasy, or disquiet).  How does ending stress or suffering imply disorder, being non-committal and lazy?  Quite the contrary, I would say... indeed, to NOT seek to end suffering would inexorably imply these negative connotations.

As for non-attachment, non-craving, this simply means to not get unconsciously controlled by the unconscious momentum of harmful desires, to not be self-centered or selfish.  The only difference between an enlightened being (one who is totally non-craving, or non-attached) and a non-enlightened one is the amount of stress or suffering one mindlessly allows to needlessly bleed them.

As one zen master put it, "Before enlightenment, chop wood.  After enlightenment, chop wood."

[Kartari]

Here's my interpretation of what I've heard. I could be wrong.

The problem is not desire itself. One can pursue material objects and interpersonal relationships, but suffering will arise if the person clings to permanence. We're supposed to avoid attachment to permanence. Enjoy, say, the food in front of you. But don't be upset once it is gone... nothing, nothing at all last for ever. Love your spouse and spend time with him or her TODAY, because you will not be with that person forever... there will be a day when one, the other, or both of you no longer exists.

Recognition that all is temporary, subject to death and decay, it not meant to paint a gloomy picture and suggest not worrying about tomorrow. It is meant to spur us to live in THIS moment. The past cannot be changed; don't cling to it. The future is not predictable; don't cling to it. Live the present. Plan for tomorrow... that's part of living! But don't be surprise if things unfold a bit differently than you hoped for.

Sorry... I can't quote scripture. I have something about this in my Beliefnet journal and will try to dig it up later... if it is still there.

Namaste

You have an excellent grasp of it.

There is a difference between planning for the future and living in the future.  Buddhism counters only the latter, and embraces the former.  Indeed, with the mind freed from attachments and clinging, one is free to most efficiently deal with the real world.

[Kartari]

I have a tendency to approach traditions/stories/religions/systems with an eye towards distilling some 'core' issues/themes/identified problems/attempted solutions.

The 'key' story I see in Buddhism has to do with this Prince who was sheltered from suffering, and when exposed to various forms of it all around him, became profoundly troubled, and tried to approach the subject through extreme fasting, etc., but eventually decided that wasn't helpful (brought it's own problems and didn't address his concerns) -- and that this lead to the identification of the '4 noble truths' -- that's the context....  There is needless/useless suffering/anguish, We can try to observe whatever causes there may be, if we can identify causes we may be able to take some sort of approach that reduces or eliminates the effects, there is a path one can take to address needless/useless suffering/anguish.  Three poisons can be observed as causing much suffering: intense aversion (fear/panic or anger/hatred) are toxic and have all sorts of consequences, greedy clinging to things is problematic, and so is ignorance/confusion.  If we can look at these poisons perhaps we can see how they arise and develop insight in cutting off some of these processes at the root.

The point is, there's this incredibly unsatisfactory condition, needless/useless anguish/suffering (dukka implies all of this, 'suffering' isn't a great translation, from what I understand), and we can try to look at it squarely, clearly, with the energy of our attention, and also with a sort of relaxed openness, and develop insight and deal more effectively with it, as human beings engaged in the lives of others.

You've got it as well.

[Kartari]

Right, but this is at the expense of attachments known as love.  In heaven, attachments aren't sacrificed to be free of suffering.

Love is not an attachment, at least in the Buddhist sense of the word attachment.  Check out this response I posted to you in another thread here.

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