View Full Version : Walking on Water (Matthew 14:28-31)
Heterodoxus
11-17-2009, 06:09 PM
1. In 14:29 KJV, which wording is most correct:
Peter walked upon the water and came (??? ?????) to Jesus?
Peter walked upon the water to come (??????) to Jesus?
2. In 14:30 KJV, is the adjective "boisterous" (???????) necessary to the story?
3. Why does the story of Peter walking on water appear only in the Matthew Gospel?
1. In 14:29 KJV, which wording is most correct:
Peter walked upon the water and came (??? ?????) to Jesus?
Peter walked upon the water to come (??????) to Jesus?
I'm not a Greek scholar so you may be way over my head. As I meditate in the difference, quite frankly I don't see where 'to come' or 'and came' makes any difference in the understanding.
2. In 14:30 KJV, is the adjective "boisterous" (???????) necessary to the story?
I think so. The picture given by the word 'boisterous' does much to understand the principle laid therein and reinforces the histories of other example dealing with the same problem.
The 'noise' in boisterous dictates how circumstances can be loud and distract one from what faith can accomplish. It also notes that it isn't only senses of the hearing but also in the seeing (saw the wind) that influences ones beliefs.
The distraction caused him to sink.
The refocusing on Jesus caused him to rise again into faith.
3. Why does the story of Peter walking on water appear only in the Matthew Gospel?
No way to answer that question. There are many stories that one gospel has and others don't. We do know that if they wrote everything that Jesus did and said, (analogy), there wouldn't be enough space to place all the books.
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did , the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written KJV
wmdkitty
11-18-2009, 06:26 AM
I like to think he froze the water first, and walked across the ice. (Ice is, still, technically, water, you know.)
Or he knew where the rocks were....
I like to think he froze the water first, and walked across the ice. (Ice is, still, technically, water, you know.)
Or he knew where the rocks were....
The "rocks" story is when there was a Charismatic Pastor, a Catholic Priest and a Jewish Rabbi.
They were all fishing. The Pastor got tired of waiting, threw the rod on the boat and got out and walked on the water to the shore.
The Rabbi's eyes went as wide as they could go. The Priest said "I agree" and threw his rod on the boat and walked on water to the shore.
The Rabbi's eyes went wide as saucers.
The Rabbi said, "Well, I am a representative of God too!" Got out of the boat and sank.
He didn't know about the underwater rock wall.
wmdkitty
11-18-2009, 06:39 AM
The version I heard had a Wiccan priestess, a Jewish Rabbi, and an Evangelical preacher. The priestess and the rabbi walked across the water, and are standing on the shore.
Evangelist, not to be shown up by "foul demon worshippers" tried the same, and sank.
Rabbi turns to Priestess and asks, "Do you think we should have told him about the rocks?"
The version I heard had a Wiccan priestess, a Jewish Rabbi, and an Evangelical preacher. The priestess and the rabbi walked across the water, and are standing on the shore.
Evangelist, not to be shown up by "foul demon worshippers" tried the same, and sank.
Rabbi turns to Priestess and asks, "Do you think we should have told him about the rocks?"
LOL
I guess each faith has its own version.
deacon777
11-18-2009, 02:57 PM
Why does the story of Peter walking on water appear only in the Matthew Gospel?
Why does the Our Father prayer appear only in Matthews gospel? Why do the infancy narratives appear only in Luke's gospel? Why does the wedding feast at Cana appear only in John's gospel? We could go on and on and on. The short answer is this means there are at least four ways to tell the Jesus story. The long answer requires a lot of keystrokes dealing with how the writers of these books consolidated and edited and wrote their specific gospels. But there is absolutely nothing special about a particular gospel telling a particular story not in the other gospels. The Church knew when it canonized the four gospels they didn't all sync up exactly alike. We've known this since the late 1st century.
Heterodoxus
11-19-2009, 06:04 PM
Thanks for your responses (you too, Deacon777 :D)
Now a more difficult question:
from where, or from whom, did the Christian belief in levitation originate?
Thanks for your responses (you too, Deacon777 :D)
Now a more difficult question:
from where, or from whom, did the Christian belief in levitation originate?
;D Your question is worded wrong. Christians believe in miracles not in levitation.
You could say that belief in miracles began with Moses and even before.
More specifically... faith begins when the knowledge of God is declared. When Jesus told Peter to come out... at that moment it became possible and only because it was declared to Peter at that moment, for that specific time and for a specific purpose.
If I were to take the Tannakh as an example, I would say that when Joshua crossed the river Jordan on and by command of God which caused the waters to recede from the city of Adam (representing the beginning as well as the beginning of sin) unto the Dead Sea (representing the results of sin) - it was for that moment, for that specific time, for a specific purpose on the command of God.
We don't believe in "parting waters" - we believe in God.
deacon777
11-20-2009, 12:40 PM
Thanks for your responses (you too, Deacon777 :D)
Now a more difficult question:
from where, or from whom, did the Christian belief in levitation originate?
Would that also include the Hebrew scriptures - like Elijah being taken up into heaven on a fiery chariot?
There are two issues at play here. One, the use of metaphor and allegory in storytelling to transmit a revealed truth the biblical writer wants to convey. Two, revelation is ultimately metaphysical.
That means, at least for Christians, why would we be skeptical about Peter walking on the water (ever so briefly with Christ), when we have believed for almost 2000 years that a man was killed and rose from the dead after three days - and ascended into heaven - levitating all the way one might presume?
What about raising Lazarus from the dead? Or the Mt. of Transfiguration experience? The virgin birth? Just to name a few. If one rules out any possibility of divine intervention into ordinary human life (including the Godman Jesus Christ) - then the Christian story cannot happen. It is just another one of Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" examples, of which according to him, there are many.
Metis
11-20-2009, 02:09 PM
It is just another one of Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" examples, of which according to him, there are many.
Great book! And I think it should be mandatory reading for everyone before they're allowed to post anything.
Heterodoxus
11-20-2009, 03:54 PM
It is just another one of Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" examples, of which according to him, there are many.
Great book! And I think it should be mandatory reading for everyone before they're allowed to post anything.
I've read some of Campbell and watched his PBS interviews with Bill Moyers. He was very well compensated for his opinions and efforts to promote same.
Nevertheless, is a Bible event based on a traditional story accepted as history (myth; e.g., walking on water) consistent with fact or reality (true) just because people choose to believe it despite real world experiences to the contrary? Shouldn't faith-full Christians be navigating the world's waterways on foot and not in boats, ships, or on PWC?
Getting back to my question, I ask again: from where, or from whom, did the Christian belief in levitation* originate? Please, focus on the question and refrain from scripture-related circular reasoning or the offering of unsolicited personal beliefs/opinions?
* levitation: "To rise or cause to rise into the air and float in apparent defiance of gravity" (Answers.com); "The phenomenon of a person or thing rising into the air by apparently supernatural means" (WordWeb Dictionary); "The act of raising (a body) from the ground [or water] by presumably spiritualistic means" (op. cit.).
It is just another one of Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" examples, of which according to him, there are many.
Great book! And I think it should be mandatory reading for everyone before they're allowed to post anything.
I've read some of Campbell and watched his PBS interviews with Bill Moyers. He was very well compensated for his opinions and efforts to promote same.
Nevertheless, is a Bible event based on a traditional story accepted as history (myth; e.g., walking on water) consistent with fact or reality (true) just because people choose to believe it despite real world experiences to the contrary? Shouldn't faith-full Christians be navigating the world's waterways on foot and not in boats, ships, or on PWC?
Getting back to my question, I ask again: from where, or from whom, did the Christian belief in levitation* originate? Please, focus on the question and refrain from scripture-related circular reasoning or the offering of unsolicited personal beliefs/opinions?
* levitation: "To rise or cause to rise into the air and float in apparent defiance of gravity" (Answers.com); "The phenomenon of a person or thing rising into the air by apparently supernatural means" (WordWeb Dictionary); "The act of raising (a body) from the ground [or water] by presumably spiritualistic means" (op. cit.).
Again...
":) Your question is worded wrong. Christians believe in miracles not in levitation.
You could say that belief in miracles began with Moses and even before.
More specifically... faith begins when the knowledge of God is declared. When Jesus told Peter to come out... at that moment it became possible and only because it was declared to Peter at that moment, for that specific time and for a specific purpose.
If I were to take the Tannakh as an example, I would say that when Joshua crossed the river Jordan on and by command of God which caused the waters to recede from the city of Adam (representing the beginning as well as the beginning of sin) unto the Dead Sea (representing the results of sin) - it was for that moment, for that specific time, for a specific purpose on the command of God.
We don't believe in "parting waters" - we believe in God." If God commanded to walk across the river Jordan... at that time it becomes possible. After that... cross at your own risk.
wmdkitty
11-22-2009, 07:34 PM
It is just another one of Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" examples, of which according to him, there are many.
Great book! And I think it should be mandatory reading for everyone before they're allowed to post anything.
I've read some of Campbell and watched his PBS interviews with Bill Moyers. He was very well compensated for his opinions and efforts to promote same.
Nevertheless, is a Bible event based on a traditional story accepted as history (myth; e.g., walking on water) consistent with fact or reality (true) just because people choose to believe it despite real world experiences to the contrary? Shouldn't faith-full Christians be navigating the world's waterways on foot and not in boats, ships, or on PWC?
Getting back to my question, I ask again: from where, or from whom, did the Christian belief in levitation* originate? Please, focus on the question and refrain from scripture-related circular reasoning or the offering of unsolicited personal beliefs/opinions?
* levitation: "To rise or cause to rise into the air and float in apparent defiance of gravity" (Answers.com); "The phenomenon of a person or thing rising into the air by apparently supernatural means" (WordWeb Dictionary); "The act of raising (a body) from the ground [or water] by presumably spiritualistic means" (op. cit.).
Again...
:) Your question is worded wrong. Christians believe in miracles not in levitation.
*headdesk*
The levitation -is- the miracle in question!
Now stop dodging, and answer the damn question!
It is just another one of Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" examples, of which according to him, there are many.
Great book! And I think it should be mandatory reading for everyone before they're allowed to post anything.
I've read some of Campbell and watched his PBS interviews with Bill Moyers. He was very well compensated for his opinions and efforts to promote same.
Nevertheless, is a Bible event based on a traditional story accepted as history (myth; e.g., walking on water) consistent with fact or reality (true) just because people choose to believe it despite real world experiences to the contrary? Shouldn't faith-full Christians be navigating the world's waterways on foot and not in boats, ships, or on PWC?
Getting back to my question, I ask again: from where, or from whom, did the Christian belief in levitation* originate? Please, focus on the question and refrain from scripture-related circular reasoning or the offering of unsolicited personal beliefs/opinions?
* levitation: "To rise or cause to rise into the air and float in apparent defiance of gravity" (Answers.com); "The phenomenon of a person or thing rising into the air by apparently supernatural means" (WordWeb Dictionary); "The act of raising (a body) from the ground [or water] by presumably spiritualistic means" (op. cit.).
Again...
:) Your question is worded wrong. Christians believe in miracles not in levitation.
*headdesk*
The levitation -is- the miracle in question!
Now stop dodging, and answer the damn question!
:) I did... perhaps you didn't read what I said.
wmdkitty
11-22-2009, 07:36 PM
No, you didn't. You attempted to redefine the question, then dodged it with the same old "goddidit" BS.
No, you didn't. You attempted to redefine the question, then dodged it with the same old "goddidit" BS.
That is because we don't go around saying "I believe in levitation". So it was worded "wrong"!
Now... if you want to believe that we believe in levitation - your call and won't hold it against you.
We don't believe in parting waters either... but we believe that at God's command it can be done.
So what part of above don't you understand?
coachbob
11-22-2009, 07:46 PM
No, you didn't. You attempted to redefine the question, then dodged it with the same old "goddidit" BS.
Perhaps you and hetero can explain how you came to the conclusion that Christians believe in levitation. That's a new one on me. But then, what do I know; I'm just a Christian.
wmdkitty
11-22-2009, 07:47 PM
Because your god-man is reported to have levitated. Duh.
Because your god-man is reported to have levitated. Duh.
And what supernatural manifestations do you believe in?
wmdkitty
11-22-2009, 09:19 PM
Because your god-man is reported to have levitated. Duh.
And what supernatural manifestations do you believe in?
Nice try, but that's irrelevant. ANSWER THE QUESTION.
coachbob
11-23-2009, 04:11 AM
Because your god-man is reported to have levitated. Duh.
Reported by whom?
wmdkitty
11-23-2009, 04:20 AM
Because your god-man is reported to have levitated. Duh.
Reported by whom?
By the writers of the gospels. Now, your god-man supposedly walked on water. He supposedly raised from the dead. And supposedly was seen LEVITATING a good few feet off the ground (by his disciples).
So, where does the Christian belief in levitation come from?
Palmtree
11-23-2009, 06:07 AM
So, where does the Christian belief in levitation come from?
Why is it not acceptable to you, that God, (you know, the Creator of gravity), is the source of power which can suspend gravity? (and you can call it levitation if you so choose to, no problem, it's only a word. ;))
Also, these events are made known to us from the scriptures; and didn't Deacon already mention that it occurred as early as Elijah?? It's apparent, that either you are not reading the responses given, totally ignoring them, or simply incapable of comprehending them. Most five-year-olds can understand that the rude and insistent repetitive asking of a question, doesn't change the answer. Get a grip!
Moreover, for those whom so desire to see Christians levitate, then you may indeed have the opportunity to see that with your very own eyes.....
1 Thessalonians 4:14-18
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
deacon777
11-23-2009, 09:50 AM
Well, we were trying to play nice. But if you want to stomp your feet and demand an answer to the question where did this idea of levitation come from in the NT...I am just going to have to roll my eyes and and ask another obvious question...WHO CARES?
What possible significance can "levitation" have on either the story about Peter walking on the waters with Jesus, or anything else in the Gospel of Matthew? How do we even know the author of Matthew understood Jesus and Peter walking on the water - defying "gravity" (unknown concept back then) as "levitation"?
I think it safe to say what the writer was doing, as he did when he had Jesus in the fishing boat calming the roaring wind and seas - is portray that Jesus isn't "just" a man. These are stories about the power of faith, not the power of levitation.
Why don't you just come out and say how you think this idea of levitation found its way into the NT - (and the OT too btw). Then maybe we'll have something to discuss.
Heterodoxus
11-23-2009, 02:21 PM
Conclusion:
Christians believe that Jesus and Peter levitated/walked on water because they've been programmed to believe it;
Christians do not know the source (who/where) of this "miracle," and
Christians believe that supernatural events, such as levitation and reanimation of dead humans, are real world and true "miracles" performed by the supernatural (immaterial, non-tangible) God of both Judaism and pro-Christian Judaizers (Catholics, Evangelicals, and the like).
Therefore, Christians may be likened to the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:22a) who worship they know not what--or why--they worship as they do.
Is this a reasonable conclusion based on the pro-Christian rhetoric and subjective opinions thus far proffered?
coachbob
11-23-2009, 02:26 PM
Conclusion:
Christians believe that Jesus and Peter levitated/walked on water because they've been programmed to believe it;
No, we believe it because we read about it in The Word.
Christians do not know the source (who/where) of this "miracle," and
God is the source of miracles.
Christians believe that supernatural events, such as levitation and reanimation of dead humans, are real world and true "miracles" performed by the supernatural (immaterial, non-tangible) God of both Judaism and pro-Christian Judaizers (Catholics, Evangelicals, and the like).
See answer above.
Therefore, Christians may be likened to the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:22a) who worship they know not what--or why--they worship as they do.
Is this a reasonable conclusion based on the pro-Christian rhetoric and subjective opinions thus far proffered?
No, it is not.
Palmtree
11-23-2009, 03:18 PM
* Christians believe that Jesus and Peter levitated/walked on water because they've been programmed to believe it..
You mean programmed as in brainwashed, don't you? What person hasn't been programmed to believe nearly everything from childhood? Not only about Christ, but name any non-religious subject as well. All children are programmed, some differently than others. So are you suggesting that there is no room for free-thinking outside of this so-called "programming" with regard to biblical topics. Haven't people everywhere been subject to being coerced to believe certain things about any subject, besides Christianity?
Christians do not know the source (who/where) of this "miracle,"
What you're really implying is, that since YOU don't know the "Source", then nobody else can know either. YOU have drawn dogmatic conclusions in your head about things based on YOUR lack of knowing something. This is not a strong argument in opposition of those whom DO know the "Source" of the miracle. Perhaps, you've been left out-of-the-loop for some reason? Perhaps, the "Source" of the "miracles" has chosen to leave you groping in the dark with regard to the subject that you are inquiring about? Therefore, perhaps the problem isn't programming at all, but rather, a lack thereof??
Christians believe that supernatural events, such as levitation and reanimation of dead humans, are real world and true "miracles" performed by the supernatural (immaterial, non-tangible) God...
Can't really argue with that; at least, your latest conclusion is based on some "programming" from God or Christians.
Therefore, Christians may be likened to the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:22a) who worship they know not what--or why--they worship as they do.
Indeed! And, wasn't the Samaritan woman in DIRECT communication with, well, let's call Him the "Source", shall we?
Is this a reasonable conclusion based on the pro-Christian rhetoric and subjective opinions thus far proffered?
I think the letters which you insist on posting below your avatar, matches the arrogance with which you proffer your misguided conclusions. Perhaps, you could come down from off of your high-horse and chat because frankly, my neck hurts from looking up that high, and I'm not too fond of slippin' in the growing mound of manure.
Conclusion:
Christians believe that Jesus and Peter levitated/walked on water because they've been programmed to believe it;
??? Not only do I believe it because I read it (I accepted Jesus Christ as my Messiah at age 28) - but was not programmed.
Additionally, I believe it because I have experienced the miraculous myself.
Not to mention that with God, not is impossible.
Christians do not know the source (who/where) of this "miracle," and
??? I told you that when God authorizes it by statement... it then becomes possible.
Could it be possible... you really weren't looking for any answers? ::)
Christians believe that supernatural events, such as levitation and reanimation of dead humans, are real world and true "miracles" performed by the supernatural (immaterial, non-tangible) God of both Judaism and pro-Christian Judaizers (Catholics, Evangelicals, and the like).
Therefore, Christians may be likened to the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:22a) who worship they know not what--or why--they worship as they do.
That logical progression is finished by an equally logical question "What are the prices of eggs in China?"
Is this a reasonable conclusion based on the pro-Christian rhetoric and subjective opinions thus far proffered?
Need I answer?
deacon777
11-24-2009, 08:41 AM
Conclusion:
Christians believe that Jesus and Peter levitated/walked on water because they've been programmed to believe it;
Christians do not know the source (who/where) of this "miracle," and
Christians believe that supernatural events, such as levitation and reanimation of dead humans, are real world and true "miracles" performed by the supernatural (immaterial, non-tangible) God of both Judaism and pro-Christian Judaizers (Catholics, Evangelicals, and the like).
Therefore, Christians may be likened to the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:22a) who worship they know not what--or why--they worship as they do.
Is this a reasonable conclusion based on the pro-Christian rhetoric and subjective opinions thus far proffered?
I suspected as much. One develops over time in cybespace debate boards an intuition about how individuals frame certain questions - all designed to lead to their desired outcomes.
Hetro - why didn't you just come out and say "Christians are stupid and easily led", instead of playing this rediculous game of cherry-picking your favorite bible passages. I suspected when you put all those initials after your name you were up to something - and I see I was right.
Hey, if you want to believe the natural world is all there is - be my guest. But it is not irrational to believe creation came from a creator - as opposed to non-intelligent random events.
We believe this creator intervened and intervenes in human history. If you want to debate our stance in life, at least try to be more intelligent than - "I am smart and you christians are stupid." Because as of right now, I can't see where you learned a darn thing in graduate school - assuming you really went.
deacon777
11-25-2009, 12:18 PM
author=Heterodoxus link=topic=2494.msg80776#msg80776 date=1259095882]
All these pro-miracle, "God said it and I believe it" opinions, quasi-libels, and other side-steps, but still no on-point answer to the issue of from where or whom the Christian belief in the supernatural phenomenon known as levitation originated.
Attribute ill motives to me if you wish, if that helps you to be confident in your faith. Just remember: I asked a specific question and received no specific answer beyond conjecture and rhetoric; ergo, my conclusion is apparently correct.
According to the faith of you let it be to you
~Matthew 9:29b, GNT
So that's it? That's all you got? Unbelievable. There is nothing specifically "Christian" about belief in "supernatural phenomenon." Obviously Elijah "levitated" right up to heaven along with his fiery chariot - defying the laws of gravity all along the way...so the story goes.
The question is not where did levitation come from - the question is where did the idea that God "supernaturally" intervenes in ordinary life come from, regardless of what physical law (on occasion) is being broken?
Christians got that idea from the Hebrew scriptures of which they were all too familiar with. They also got that idea, reinforced by their own life experiences with Jesus, that God manifested himself through him in extraordinary (and ordinary) ways. These stories are alleged eye-witness accounts probably retold by apostolic oral tradition and finally written down.
They are written by believers for believers hetro, which obviously rules you out. Why do we care where "the source" of this miracle you cite comes from when we already know that if there was a metaphysical event - it has to come from God?
If it bothers you that God is "immaterial and non-tangible" well duh? What else would you expect from something outside time and space? Time and space are created things too. You live in that bubble as we all do, and you can no more prove or rationally assert what is outside that bubble than we can. We have "faith" and "hope" that we know what ultimate reality is. And I suppose you have your own doubt and skepticism about what ultimate reality is not (Christian and Jewish) - and about what you think it might be...nothingness perhaps?
But no matter, if all you see on the horizon of life is "natural causes" - fine. Just understand that anything that postulates possibilities outside time and space is by definition - metaphysical. To absolutely reject any possibility of the metaphysical is as dogmatic as anything Christians and Jews assert.
First you tell me your MA in theology gives you the background to instruct divinity graduates...and now you start a thread debunking the whole underpinning for any belief in divinity. You're a real piece of work hetro.
Heterodoxus
11-25-2009, 02:20 PM
[quote=Heterodoxus ]All these pro-miracle, "God said it and I believe it" opinions, quasi-libels, and other side-steps, but still no on-point answer to the issue of from where or whom the Christian belief in the supernatural phenomenon known as levitation originated.
Attribute ill motives to me if you wish, if that helps you to be confident in your faith. Just remember: I asked a specific question and received no specific answer beyond conjecture and rhetoric; ergo, my conclusion is apparently correct.
According to the faith of you let it be to you
~Matthew 9:29b, GNTThe foregoing posting doesn't appear, except in this quote of it, on page 2 or 3 of this thread because ____?
So that's it? That's all you got? Unbelievable.Again with your arrogant assumptions! Of course I have more info. I also have supporting citations. Why would you presume that I do or would not? I neither sharp-shoot wildly from the hip nor deliberately snipe at others as some here appear to enjoy doing. I'm also not yet convinced that I wouldn't be casting pearls, so to speak, if I choose to proffer more info.
There is nothing specifically "Christian" about belief in "supernatural phenomenon."Correct! Such belief is specifically pagan/Gentile oriented with, usually, astrological roots. As another reader here may or may not know, astrology and other such beliefs/rituals were adapted by the early Catholic Church in support of its religio-politico agenda and doctrines, and made part of New Testament scriptures by that church's Gospel revisionists.
Yet even today, when many people are purportedly better educated than in the days of the pre-Reformation church, a multitude of Catholics and Protestants alike persist in believing many things seen in the Bible which they think were written by the fin-gaw of Gaw-duh. And the belief that Peter "walked" (in terms of a Christian "miracle"), or levitated (in terms of pagan claims of such practice) is but one of those many things.
The question is not where did levitation come from ....Your attempt to divert from the issue (a typical, pro-orthodox or, sometimes, devious Christian ploy) of the origin of the Christian belief in walking on water is noted. So, too, is your apparent predilection for arguing about something you know not what or why.
First you tell me your MA in theology gives you the background to instruct divinity graduates...and now you start a thread debunking the whole underpinning for any belief in divinity. You're a real piece of work hetro.
Thank you, and, if you weren't so hyper-critical of things not taught in church or Sunday School, perhaps you'd better appreciate what I'm doing both here and in other threads or forums. I'm not qualified to instruct a D.Div. and, again, you appear to presume incorrectly. To do that, I'd need a Th.D.
I could instruct B.Div. or B.Th.; M.Div.; persons who have or have not out-of-field degrees, or Christian groups. But, IME, the minds of those Divinities guys, with their over-glorified Sunday School certificates (D.Div. degrees), are too far gone. Moreover, the majority of D.Div. holders represent church organizations having no professional, full-time theological staff, particularly in the Southern Baptist or Evangelical circles. It's unlikely they'd accept anything a non-D.Div. holder might offer, like the J.D's or M.D's who take advice from no one except other J.D's or M.D's.
BTW, metaphysics is in the realm of philosophy popularized by the "New Age" (neo-Pagan?) movement, not theology. Now be honest: if one worships according to a metaphysical (supernatural, theoretical) precept like walking on water, should they not also worship crystals, trees, and therapeutic rocks?
But those things come from...tha debbil! Lol. It has to be THEIR WOOWOO to be a miracle. Other peoples' woowoo is ev0l. :P
deacon777
12-03-2009, 02:04 PM
author=Heterodoxus link=topic=2494.msg80948#msg80948 date=1259180427]
"God said it and I believe it" opinions, quasi-libels, and other side-steps, but still no on-point answer to the issue of from where or whom the Christian belief in the supernatural phenomenon known as levitation originated.
It's the same old game you cynics always play. You set up the fundamentalist boogy-man and gleefully knock him over. Most people who take the bible seriously and believe in the Judeo/Christian concept of God, do not approach sacred scripture as simply "God said it and I believe it".
Attribute ill motives to me if you wish, if that helps you to be confident in your faith. Just remember: I asked a specific question and received no specific answer beyond conjecture and rhetoric; ergo, my conclusion is apparently correct.
You've asked a silly question that some us have futilely tried to make into a real discussion - but you would have none of it. Preferring instead to insist on your trumped up narrative about how Christianity is nothing more than neo-paganism warmed over. Do you actually think YOU are the first person to float that ridiculous charge? Repeatedly asking a dumb question doesn't validate the clearly flawed main premise inherent in your question.
Your conclusion is silly. You attribute many of the "miracle" events in the NT to Roman/Greek pagan beliefs and ideas - all the while conveniently forgetting that the Hebrew scriptures are literally full of what they saw as God intervening in human affairs - in sometimes miraculous ways.
No, people do not have to believe in the miraculous because the bible says so. But for pete sakes, to jump into the middle of an ongoing story about God and man (precisely where the OT meets the NT) and declare that all NT miracles derive from pagan beliefs/practices is so absurd I cannot believe anyone would take that line of reasoning seriously.
Again with your arrogant assumptions! Of course I have more info. I also have supporting citations. Why would you presume that I do or would not?
Because none of us have seen them and given your performance thus far, I doubt many of us are holding our breath. All you got so far is the insistence that the story of Peter walking on the water - comes from some pagan idea about levitation. And because nobody agrees with this silliness, we're all a bunch "God said it, and I believe it" fundies. Sheesh, this is why I come to the internet - where else can you get this kind of entertainment?
I'm also not yet convinced that I wouldn't be casting pearls, so to speak, if I choose to proffer more info.
Why do I get the idea that Jesus wasn't thinking about people like you when he advocated against "casting pearls before..." Odd that you would use that metaphor.
Such belief (metaphysical) is specifically pagan/Gentile oriented with, usually, astrological roots.
Rubbish. Lets get basic here. Go all the way back to the beginning. How did creation come to be? Who or what was the prime mover? How far are you willing to go with "natural cause and effect" - all the way to infinity? Can't you get it into your "alleged" educated head that this whole idea of G-O-D...IS...A..."metaphysical" reality - at least to those who believe. There is nothing "pagan/Gentile" about the GOD of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. It is a uniquely Hebrew revelation - one God who caused creation to be. And who, btw, lives in c-o-v-e-n-e-n-t with "his people" - signifying a relationship.
Somehow, methinks you completely missed the Hebrew scriptures, and as you are proving better than anything I could say, one cannot understand Christianity apart from Judaism.
wmdkitty
12-03-2009, 04:22 PM
If "God" is real, why can't you show him to us? Why can't we touch, taste, see, or smell him? Why is there zero physical evidence of his existence?
Palmtree
12-04-2009, 06:40 AM
author=Heterodoxus link=topic=2494.msg80948#msg80948 date=1259180427]
"God said it and I believe it" opinions, quasi-libels, and other side-steps, but still no on-point answer to the issue of from where or whom the Christian belief in the supernatural phenomenon known as levitation originated.
It's the same old game you cynics always play. You set up the fundamentalist boogy-man and gleefully knock him over. Most people who take the bible seriously and believe in the Judeo/Christian concept of God, do not approach sacred scripture as simply "God said it and I believe it".
Attribute ill motives to me if you wish, if that helps you to be confident in your faith. Just remember: I asked a specific question and received no specific answer beyond conjecture and rhetoric; ergo, my conclusion is apparently correct.
You've asked a silly question that some us have futilely tried to make into a real discussion - but you would have none of it. Preferring instead to insist on your trumped up narrative about how Christianity is nothing more than neo-paganism warmed over. Do you actually think YOU are the first person to float that ridiculous charge? Repeatedly asking a dumb question doesn't validate the clearly flawed main premise inherent in your question.
Your conclusion is silly. You attribute many of the "miracle" events in the NT to Roman/Greek pagan beliefs and ideas - all the while conveniently forgetting that the Hebrew scriptures are literally full of what they saw as God intervening in human affairs - in sometimes miraculous ways.
No, people do not have to believe in the miraculous because the bible says so. But for pete sakes, to jump into the middle of an ongoing story about God and man (precisely where the OT meets the NT) and declare that all NT miracles derive from pagan beliefs/practices is so absurd I cannot believe anyone would take that line of reasoning seriously.
Again with your arrogant assumptions! Of course I have more info. I also have supporting citations. Why would you presume that I do or would not?
Because none of us have seen them and given your performance thus far, I doubt many of us are holding our breath. All you got so far is the insistence that the story of Peter walking on the water - comes from some pagan idea about levitation. And because nobody agrees with this silliness, we're all a bunch "God said it, and I believe it" fundies. Sheesh, this is why I come to the internet - where else can you get this kind of entertainment?
I'm also not yet convinced that I wouldn't be casting pearls, so to speak, if I choose to proffer more info.
Why do I get the idea that Jesus wasn't thinking about people like you when he advocated against "casting pearls before..." Odd that you would use that metaphor.
Such belief (metaphysical) is specifically pagan/Gentile oriented with, usually, astrological roots.
Rubbish. Lets get basic here. Go all the way back to the beginning. How did creation come to be? Who or what was the prime mover? How far are you willing to go with "natural cause and effect" - all the way to infinity? Can't you get it into your "alleged" educated head that this whole idea of G-O-D...IS...A..."metaphysical" reality - at least to those who believe. There is nothing "pagan/Gentile" about the GOD of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. It is a uniquely Hebrew revelation - one God who caused creation to be. And who, btw, lives in c-o-v-e-n-e-n-t with "his people" - signifying a relationship.
Somehow, methinks you completely missed the Hebrew scriptures, and as you are proving better than anything I could say, one cannot understand Christianity apart from Judaism.
Very well-stated Deacon! :)
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